Manufacturing a 1911A1 for WWII

[bummer]

For which contractor??

National Postal Meter , mine has a U stamp for US&S

 

[cmansguns]

Here is the only picture I have uploaded along with a S&W Model 1917. Bought the Ithaca off GB about seven years ago. Thought I was paying a lot of money then but I wanted an unmolested, non arsenal rebuild WWII 1911A1. Best investment I have made. I estimate that it has doubled in price from what I paid. It even came with a correct WWII contract magazine. I took the original Keyes Fiber bakelite grips off and put away - put on some Korean War era surplus grips as I shoot it from time to time and didn't want to further wear the original grips. My guess is that it was carried in the war due to holster wear that can be seen on frame and slide. Ithaca shipping records are hard to access but I assume since it was made in 1943 it may have been issued to a pilot or aircrew and brought back. Will try to post some more in a day or so.

Hi Forum;

Back when I thought I had to have the "big 3" of 1911A1's (my own trifecta...Colt, Ithaca, Remington-Rand) I gathered the books, did what research was available (pre personal computer) and finally did get all three under my roof. Pics attached (I hope). For VA Tom: look on the right side of your Ithaca right under the O of "Property" and right above the 5th digit of the serial number. My 1943 Ithaca is absolutely pristine in all respects....but for that one very small shiny "dot". Years later I found out that the "dot" is actually the inside tab of the USGI flap holster closure button. Since then I look at every Ithaca I see whether clean original, or slightly worn, to heavy wear and they all seem to wear that "badge". My Colt did not have it and neither did the Remington Rand, yet the Ithaca is the nicest of the lot. You are right about value....DCM sold 1911A1's delivered to your home for $12.62 in 1961! I paid "slightly more" for mine, but look at em now! The Remington and the Colt are gone (to fund more S&W wheel guns), but the Ithaca won't be going anywhere.

 

[cmansguns]

another Ithaca pic as I exceeded max no. of files on last post

 

[shawn mccarver]

The blonde in the orange shirt who was doing assembly would be a welcome addition for Thanksgiving dinner! Or Christmas! Or, for any other holiday! Actually, there is no need for a special occasion at all. She would have been welcome anytime!

Did you notice how they oiled the "Automatic" prior to wrapping for shipment? No sparing drops of oil or oily rags. They dipped a rack of the pistols in a vat of oil prior to wrapping.

Good show!

 

[bushmaster1313]

Makes me appreciate my Ithaca M1911A1 even more
Thank you for posting

 

[torizus]

I really liked the ordinance inspector at the end of the line,as she checked the action she brought the gun to her ear, probably listening for the sear click. Amazing, in a factory all day "listening" to sear clicks amongst all the other machinery. try sneaking in late on that girl.

 

[VaTom]

Hi Forum;

For VA Tom: look on the right side of your Ithaca right under the O of "Property" and right above the 5th digit of the serial number. My 1943 Ithaca is absolutely pristine in all respects....but for that one very small shiny "dot". Years later I found out that the "dot" is actually the inside tab of the USGI flap holster closure button. Since then I look at every Ithaca I see whether clean original, or slightly worn, to heavy wear and they all seem to wear that "badge".

Better pictures of my 1943 Ithaca 1911A1 as promised. It is wearing it's original Keyes Fiber bakelite grips. Yes there is a rub on the right side (finish is worn) from the holster tab. There is also a rub on the upper left side grip that corresponds to the location of the inside leather tab of the holster. The pistol has the narrow checkered hammer, the serrated slide stop and safety, and the stamped trigger designed by Ithaca and adopted later by Colt and Remington Rand. It has the High Standard (HS) barrel. Ordnance crossed cannons on the rear right side frame and ordnance flaming bomb on the inside of the frame below where the recoil spring and rod are located.

The holster in the picture is a reproduction.

 

[MCorps0311]

I had no sound,but like the video!

 

[30-30remchester]

This was in the days when guns were hand built by craftsmen. Back in the days before mass production by casting and molding it was a machinist world. Nowadays guns are spit off the assembly line by the hundreds everyday. The Winchester model 12 had in excess of 3,200 hand inspections for every gun produced. A different time back then. Many of the newer plastic, molded, stamped and cast guns function every bit as good as these hand built guns.

 

[Watchdog]

Did you notice how they oiled the "Automatic" prior to wrapping for shipment? No sparing drops of oil or oily rags. They dipped a rack of the pistols in a vat of oil prior to wrapping.

I noticed that...just dunk 'em, grips and all, in the oil, then wrap 'em up and off they go.

Like I said earlier, if I could just have one of them...just one.

In April of 2012, this one sold for $5,462.50, which was over $1200 more than the projected top price. Four years later, that pistol would probably go for at least $7,000 now.

Note that the early Keyes grip panels on this one do not have the reinforcing rings around the screws.

 

[VaTom]

Nice to see a thread on 1911A1. Next to S&W revolvers, they are a favorite of mine. Nine years ago I passed on a nice 1943 Colt 1911A1 priced at $1,400 (as I thought price was too high) at a local gun show - Major Regrets!! Shortly after I picked up my Ithaca.

Colt made a reproduction WWII - 1911A1 back in 2001. Originally they sold new at that time for around $750. If I recall correctly the run was only about 2,700 pistols. Occassionally you will see one on GB generally in the $1,500+ range. Seven years I bought one off GB at a great price. It had all the papers, boxes, etc but it had a some scratches in the parkerized finish on the frame. Since it wasn't pristine NIB I bought it to shoot. It is a nice shooter.

I don't buy any revolvers or pistols that I can't take to the range occassionally and enjoy.

 

[Watchdog]

One thing this little film does perfectly is showcase the beauty and practical simplicity of John M. Browning's design.

If you were a G.I. in WWII (or other conflicts where the 1911 was the dominant sidearm), it didn't matter if you had a US&S, Remington Rand, Ithaca, or a Colt. Or even a Singer or an older Springfield. If you were in a bind and needed a part for your pistol, you could cannibalize one off of a pistol made by a different manufacturer and keep on shootin'. You could stick an Ithaca slide onto a Colt or drop a High Standard or a Flannery barrel into any of them, and it'd function. Parts interchangeability was one of the primary reasons Browning's design was chosen back in 1911.

And a brief mention of something else in the film. Like others here, I've noticed the pretty blond in the red sweater. I mean, how can you not notice her? I'm sure that in 1943, she had no idea that guys would still be admiring her beauty seventy-three years later.

I wonder who she was? I suppose like everyone else in that film, she's gone now, but her memory lives on, doesn't it? Just like the pistols she helped make for the war effort.

 

[VaTom]

Definitely a sweetheart of some GI in that red sweater.

To read about how the Ordnance Units performed in the field in WWII get a copy of "Brave Men" by Ernie Pyle. Ir was published in 1944 and I have seen it in reprint in paperback at bookstores. He devotes a significant part of a chapter describing an Ordnace Company at work in Normandy shortly after D-Day repairing small arms, jeeps, tanks, etc.

One of my favorite WWII books. I reccomend if you like to read about the regular GIs and sailors in WWII. Found a first edition copy many years ago in a used bookstore in Charleston, SC.

 

[grover99]

great film only thing that bugged me was that guy test firing without hearing protection. Bet he was deaf as a post in his later years

 

[flintsghost]

US&S did indeed make carbine receivers, but not many, around 30,000, as part of the Quality Hardware receiver contract. I was never clear as to how US&S got part of the QH contract, maybe as a subcontractor.

US&S made receivers for Quality Hardware and for National Postal Meter. They also made bolts, slides and trigger housings for National Postal meter. They were moved out of the .45 program because they could produce spare parts for the carbine program faster than the carbine contractors and at very high quality. The carbine program was plagued with contractors who couldn't meet delivery dates and had to constantly be borrowing from other makers to meet those date. US&S helped to keep that program on time. Colt, Ithaca and Remington Rand were in fact able to deliver on time and meet all their production objectives so the US&S wasn't really needed in that program. Hence the reason for their movement to the Carbine program as a subcontractor. US&S had also produced a lot of replacement slides for the 1911A1 program which are regularly seen by collectors on todays market.

The US&S pistols fall into 3 types. Type one has the RCD in the circle acceptance mark on the left side of the frame but has no P proof on frame or slide. The company didn't know that the P proof was required and a lot of guns left the factory before they were aware. Type 2 has the RCD in the circle acceptance mark and the P proof below the mag release on the left frame side. The P on the slide is forward of the rear sight but is on the left side of the slide curved portion about an inch to 1.5" from the sight as they were not given clear instructions on where to put it. Type 3 has the P proof on the frame below the mag release and just in front and centered on the slide the same as other makers. The RCD in circle is also present. It is supposed to be key that the P proof marks must always be the same size on frame and slide as a match that they were done together. I have all three types in my collection but at present I have take no pictures of them other than their serials for insurance purposes.

Recently, Jack the Dog on Gun Auction sold a type 3 for around $8500 about three months ago. This last weekend a type 3 sold for $8090 as I recall on gunbroker. The one Jack sold was pristine all the way through but the one on gunbroker was not and had quite a few issues as well as some corrosion in the blue. It would seem the prices are going up rather quickly. Types 1 and 2 are rarely seen for sale, and that is probably because there were fewer of them at the begining of the program while US&S was getting into full production. Both my type 1 and 2 are both nearly pristine in condition with very little wear to the dulite blue.

Union Switch & Signal 1911A1 95% : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com - the last auction on gunbroker

 

[Watchdog]

it is supposed to be key that the P proof marks must always be the same size on frame and slide as a match that they were done together. I have all three types in my collection but at present I have take no pictures of them other than their serials for insurance purposes.

That's true, and applies to the Remington Rands and Ithacas as well. I'd imagine non-matching Ps might be a good way to spot non-original 1911A1s...but then again, if, say, all Ithacas came out of the same plant, I'd think the stamps would be standardized throughout all the stamping stations? I don't know.

Congrats on owning three US&S pistols! We'd all love to see some photographs!

And thanks for such an informative post.

 

[flintsghost]

That's true, and applies to the Remington Rands and Ithacas as well. I'd imagine non-matching Ps might be a good way to spot non-original 1911A1s...but then again, if, say, all Ithacas came out of the same plant, I'd think the stamps would be standardized throughout all the stamping stations? I don't know.

Congrats on owning three US&S pistols! We'd all love to see some photographs!

And thanks for such an informative post.

Stamps tend to be different on different era's of pistols. Also replacement slides which all makers did produce have proof stamp P on them. Keep in mind that stamps do wear out. US&S stamps tend to be smaller than the norm. Clawson makes a point of mentioning that and so does Meadows in their books as a method of seeing that the slide and frame are a match for each other as an authenticating point.