I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Mc NAMARA'S PROJECT
- Thread starter OLDNAVYMCPO
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I'm not losing any sleep over it.
DWalt
Member
The military is not the only organization that had similar personnel problems. Back in the big oil boom of the 1970s-1980s, we were so busy we had to hire literally anyone who wanted a job working on well servicing crews. A high percentage were the worst of the worst - dopers, gang members, guys who had done hard time, alcoholics, illiterates, and mental defectives of every kind. It was a nightmare. Turnover rates were astronomical, job quality vanished, and accident rates soared. And many of those people proved virtually impossible to train for any jobs other than simple manual labor and couldn't be trusted to do anything right without extensive supervision.
Frank46
US Veteran
I served in the Navy from '64-'67 and while it never became generally known of this program there more than just a few dustups on the mess decks. The brass took a dim view of such things and captain's mast would be the final straw. Funny thing by late '66 on our way to our westpac cruise things seemed to have calmed down and fights on the messdecks were rare. So maybe the trouble makers were transfered to other distant commands where they could cause trouble for other commands. Our ship when on deployment held 4500 to 5000 counting airwing and ships company. Got so bad waiting in the chowlines that we complained to our superiors that after an hour waiting and no meal in sight we'd leave the chowline and return to our engineering spaces. They did open up the forward messdecks which basically did hamburgers and hot dogs with bug juice. Once the air wing departed after we arrived at our home port things got back to normal. And last med cruise before the end of MY deployment they opened up again the forward mess decks. Lesson learned "can't lead them if you can't feed them"
7shooter
Member
My cousin was a part of the McNamara's 100,000. He was borderline IQ and was a kind gentle farm kid. I couldn't believe they drafted him and what's worse send him to Viet Nam.
He lived but has spent the rest of his life with a dazed look on his face. He cannot talk about what he went through.
It was cruel to send a kid like him to war.
He lived but has spent the rest of his life with a dazed look on his face. He cannot talk about what he went through.
It was cruel to send a kid like him to war.
njr
Member
forindooruseonly
Member
Statistically speaking, Project 100,000 soldiers were twice as likely to be killed in combat than other soldiers - according to the Pentagon's own studies.
Furthermore, Project 100,000 soldiers showed a disproportionate difficulty in adjusting to their post-war lives, and all that entails.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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"There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers." Napoleon
"A competent leader can get efficient service from poor troops, while on the
contrary an incapable leader can demoralize the best of troops."
John J. Pershing
Where the presence of morons in the ranks becomes a problems is not at enlistment time but at RE-enlistment time. In 1980 it was revealed that 46% of the Army's first-term recruits were Cat IVs-that led to a hue and cry. Much less attention was paid to the revelation in 1982 that 46% of the Army's first term RE-enlistees were Cat IVs. People I know who served as EM and junior officers then had few kind things to say about the NCOs they had to put up with , finding far too many to fit the stereotype of the Army lifer as an alcoholic oaf and malingerer-and a loser-incapable of holding an honest job. But if all the Army offers is three years of scutwork and tedium, who do you think you'll get ?
"A competent leader can get efficient service from poor troops, while on the
contrary an incapable leader can demoralize the best of troops."
John J. Pershing
Where the presence of morons in the ranks becomes a problems is not at enlistment time but at RE-enlistment time. In 1980 it was revealed that 46% of the Army's first-term recruits were Cat IVs-that led to a hue and cry. Much less attention was paid to the revelation in 1982 that 46% of the Army's first term RE-enlistees were Cat IVs. People I know who served as EM and junior officers then had few kind things to say about the NCOs they had to put up with , finding far too many to fit the stereotype of the Army lifer as an alcoholic oaf and malingerer-and a loser-incapable of holding an honest job. But if all the Army offers is three years of scutwork and tedium, who do you think you'll get ?
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Dennis The B
US Veteran
The debate over McNamara's closing of the Springfield Arsenal has raged for years. However, the Arsenal had developed a "not invented here" mentality for weapons development. If it didn't resemble the M1/M14 platform, it wasn't a battle rifle.
Springfield badly lagged in adjusting weapons design to new battle tactics. There wasn't the need for a 1000 yard/meter rifle. European combat was near-fighting, as was the growing need for a true "jungle" rifle. Fire fight engagements dropped to less than 100 yards. The Pentagon wasn't without fault.
While the Garand platform was sturdy, it was also over weight.
Eugene Stoner, et al, were looking at alternative materials and calibers, but the Pentagon couldn't be persuaded to look at his ideas. While the first of Stoner's creations was in 7.62mm NATO, he quickly saw the advantages of a smaller caliber.
McNamara's background was in statistical analysis, was an Air Force veteran, and helped save Ford Motor Company in the early 1950's as one of Henry Ford, II's, "whiz kids".
However, he lacked the political acumen to survive politically. LBJ was enamored with being "in command", and it drove a lot of bad military decisions.
Springfield badly lagged in adjusting weapons design to new battle tactics. There wasn't the need for a 1000 yard/meter rifle. European combat was near-fighting, as was the growing need for a true "jungle" rifle. Fire fight engagements dropped to less than 100 yards. The Pentagon wasn't without fault.
While the Garand platform was sturdy, it was also over weight.
Eugene Stoner, et al, were looking at alternative materials and calibers, but the Pentagon couldn't be persuaded to look at his ideas. While the first of Stoner's creations was in 7.62mm NATO, he quickly saw the advantages of a smaller caliber.
McNamara's background was in statistical analysis, was an Air Force veteran, and helped save Ford Motor Company in the early 1950's as one of Henry Ford, II's, "whiz kids".
However, he lacked the political acumen to survive politically. LBJ was enamored with being "in command", and it drove a lot of bad military decisions.
My dad distrusted McNamara from the start. Then when my brother (a Green Beret) was killed over there, he hated him with a passion until the day he died.
There ya go, folks. If we fail to study history, we're bound to repeat it. This exact thing was addressed in 431 B.C. by Thucydides in The History of the Peloponnesian War. And I quote:
"A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its wars fought by fools."
Obviously McNamara the "whiz kid" must've flunked history.
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Obviously, you were on one of the larger carriers. I spent two and a half years on an Essex-class carrier, USS BHR (CVA-31). We did not have riots, and certainly not race riots. IMO, this was due to the existence of a First Class Mess (E-6 Mess, for you Army folks), and some sort of a First Class organization. It didn't hurt that the LPO was Black, although I think that the fact that we were all talking with each other may have been more important.
In my experience through the sixties, seventies, and most of the eighties, the biggest change in the Navy came through the ending of the draft. Admiral Zumwalt helped in some ways, hurt in others, but the all-volunteer force changed everything. At least that's how it looked to me. Even the reversal from the short-lived soft attitude on drugs was nothing compared to having people who actually wanted to be where they were. You could go into the head and actually find workable phone numbers, instead of "FTN" and "563 DTG."
The computer geeks have a motto which recruiters should be encouraged to use - GIGO.
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ChuckS1
US Veteran
Boy, you can sure tell who has axes to grind in this thread.
Dennis The B
US Veteran
There ya go, folks. If we fail to study history, we're bound to repeat it. This exact thing was addressed in 431 B.C. by Thucydides in The History of the Peloponnesian War. And I quote:
"A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its wars fought by fools."
Obviously McNamara the "whiz kid" must've flunked history.
McNamara was a strategic thinker, but lacked the skills to apply that thinking to tactics. Yes, we needed some "outside the box" thinking for a new battle rifle, but he tended to overthink the concept, and attempted to mother the idea too far down the chain.
When he was at Ford, he and the other "whiz kids", with the exception of Tex Thornton, tended to keep too much hands on once they came up with strategy for saving the company. Yes, Ford (HF I), ignored finance and systems to his peril, but
Most famous was J. Edward Lundy, who was Ford's CFO for years. He personally mentored several generations of finance managers and budding CFO wannabes, and the company got hide bound to finance. He was a stickler for perfect presentations, even having a manual published for their preparation. He even deigned usage of the word employee, even though employe was a perfectly reasonable substitution.
It's what happens to a lot of pure systemic thinkers; the system must prevail.
I thought of this thread last night, was watching "13 Days". JFK's story about the Cuban missal crisis. I related to that story, as I was on 24/7 alert to fly to a base outside Berlin to support our F86 fighters. Never so glad when we got the "stand down".
McNamara was very evident in that movie.
McNamara was very evident in that movie.
Frank46
US Veteran
Model520Fan, USS Franklin D Roosevelt CVA 42, next carrier class after your Essex class. The last year standing eight hour watches became a luxury for many of us. Most common was 4x4 then 6x6. And between those watches you were expected to turn to. Not unusual to wake up and face a 18-20 hour day. Last year I was in all I stood was 6 hours on and 6 hours off. Upon the finished with engines, I had to go down to the thrust block and pump some oil back to the engineroom. We normally kept the lube oil tank for the thrust block topped off while underway. And prior to getting underway back down the thrust block to top off the lube oil tank. Trick was to know when to stop taking oil out or putting it in. Otherwise the lube oil tank would overflow and you'd have oil all over the place. Machinist's Mates and Boiler Tenders were very critical ratings. I'd say that at least 90% of those who reached their end of enlistment went home. They just were not getting the number of bodies to fill the enlistment slots. Hence the continous 4x4 and 6x6 watches. They offered me $5600 bucks to re-enlist 6 months prior to my enlistment expiration date. I'd already took the courses for E4 and E5 and passed both the written and practical tests. So at that time I was only a E3 firemen. Turned down the re-enlistment bonus and was due back in states prior to my 21st birthday. So I officially got out two weeks early. Two weeks after that I get a letter from a buddy on the ship that I made E4 in the first rotation. Always wondered what things would be like if i had stayed in and did my 20. Got a job and first full year made more $$$ than any year I had in the navy. Heck was making more money than my dad who had over 40 years with the railroad. Lotta good time and some not so good. Lost a buddy when we had a bad fire aboard ship, then some more on the air wing when a drop tank fell off a jet awaiting takeoff on the catapult and the tank ruptured then exploded. Plane guard ship never did find the body of one guy who got literally blown off the flight deck. Haven't thought about the last in almost 40 years. The only people who know what we went through and did were the guys who we served with. Frank
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