Mcgivern Outdoorsman confirmation!

[AZ Rebel]

Last month I posted about an OD that I had thought was a Grail gun. The S&W letter arrived today, and confirmed it, it's a Mcgivern! I won it in an auction in CA. It was cataloged as a HD and had 70s vintage magna grips without the screw. Because of the cataloging error it didn't receive much bidding interest. Still, after auction premium, tax and shipping it cost me $2100. The fly in the ointment is it has a slight muzzle bulge. Catalog pictures didn't show it. It's flet more than seen. Since it's at the very muzzle accuracy doesn't suffer.

 

[dobegrant]

Congratulations on owning a piece of history

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Note the last gun in the shipping log 44388 went to McGivern.

 

[The Kid]

May just be my holy grail S&W. I'm envious.

 

[Legendarylawman]

I do not know enough about providence regards Colts, but looks like you did good and have some paper to back it up. I have 3 letters out, 2 Colts and 1 Smith. Maybe I can get some good news when they come in the mail. Most likely "Hardware store" guns. LOL

 

[AZ Rebel]

I do not know enough about providence regards Colts, but looks like you did good and have some paper to back it up. I have 3 letters out, 2 Colts and 1 Smith. Maybe I can get some good news when they come in the mail. Most likely "Hardware store" guns. LOL

I had hoped it was ordered by notable person of that period. I'm OK with it being sent to a hardware store. This one, Western Metal supply just happens to make up the left field wall of the stadium of the San Diego Padres.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Major congrats.

 

[glowe]

Very nice gun, but I have to wonder if it is worth what you paid?? There were only three things different on the McGivern Model, the 5" barrel, the front sight and the Magna stocks starting in 1935. Any K or N frame target revolver could be ordered with McGivern front sights as it was a standard option. I believe that without serial numbered stocks to the gun value would be quite a bit lower. Maybe Mike has some additional information that states Magna stocks were not first used on Registered Magnums?

The standard introduction of N frame Magnas is thought to be those on the first 357 Registered Magnum. That serial number range started at 45765. This Outdoorsman shipped in 1934. Since those stocks are not original to the gun, I wonder if original stocks were standard service type?

BTW, Guy's mentioned gun did not ship until 1935.

Here is another 38/44 McGivern Model that SmithNut had posted back in 2013.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

I don't know when magna stocks were first available. The pair I had, 42093 & 4, were shipped May 1933, and had service stocks with grip adapters. The Smithnut gun, above, has small grips. The OP's gun had post-WW2 magnas ( and now I have to guess) possibly because a previous owner changed the original small stocks to modern magnas. Or, if something happened to original magna stocks, they were replaced post-WW2.

Perhaps Historian Mike Helms has information about the time-frame of original magna stocks.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[AZ Rebel]

Gary

I don't know when magna stocks were first available. The pair I had, 42093 & 4, were shipped May 1933, and had service stocks with grip adapters. The Smithnut gun, above, has small grips. The OP's gun had post-WW2 magnas ( and now I have to guess) possibly because a previous owner changed the original small stocks to modern magnas. Or, if something happened to original magna stocks, they were replaced post-WW2.

Perhaps Historian Mike Helms has information about the time-frame of original magna stocks.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I have a HD shipped 4/1932 with Magna grips letter confirmed. The grips the McGivern came with were 70s vintage. I replaced them with 50s vintage magna. Surprisingly, my factory letter says that Mcgiverns were shipped with Magna grips, but all the existing ones I've seen pictured are wearing service grips.

 

[glowe]

I was under the impression that they were from 1935 onward, coinciding with the introduction of the Registered Magnum, above sn 45.000. 1932 would seem impossible.?? Do those Magnas you have lettered have serial numbers stamped on the inside of the right stock?

A very knowledgeable resource, Hoosier45, stated an engineering order was first issued in September 1935 for installing Magnas stocks on Registered Magnums and another directive later stated that they were made available on other N frame revolvers as well.

Thread 'Smith & Wesson N Frame Stocks / Grips - A Reference Guide'

Feb 4, 2018

I began accumulating wood stocks made of various wood types, grains, age, configuration, etc. I then decided I wanted an example of each kind of standard issue N-Frame stocks that would have been supplied on the 1st Model .44 Hand Ejector to the Performance Center revolvers of the 1990s. Although I'm still missing a few sets, I have put together an illustrated timeline of N-frame Stocks to hopefully assist in identifying the type/style, date, and material of factory stocks. While this thread is focused on N-frame stocks, most of the information and general time-frames are applicable to...

• Hoosier45
• Replies: 107
• Forum: S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961

• 

 

[DARE]

Roy Jinks article, "Registered .357 Magnums" says Magna stocks first installed on revolver 46978 Reg. #466 and sold to the Argentine Government on September 17, 1935. Douglas Wesson presented registration number 1 to J. Edgar Hoover on April 17, 1935. The first order forms for the .357 Magnum did not show an option for Magna stocks. Think it would have if the stocks had been available since 1932. My gun, REG 657 was ordered on November 15, 1935 and still had the old order form. My guess is a letter dated 1932 or 1934 showing Magna stocks is in error. I have a few letters with wrong information.

Guess my RM is kind of like a McGivern model. 5-inch barrel and McGivern gold bead.

 

[wheelgun610]

I was under the impression that they were from 1935 onward, coinciding with the introduction of the Registered Magnum, above sn 45.000...

That's been the commonly accepted wisdom on this forum for as long as I remember. It may very well have been Roy himself who filled in that blank back when he occasionally posted in the open forum. I don't remember anyone ever questioning it.

 

[AudieMurphy]

I do not know enough about providence regards Colts, but looks like you did good and have some paper to back it up. I have 3 letters out, 2 Colts and 1 Smith. Maybe I can get some good news when they come in the mail. Most likely "Hardware store" guns. LOL

Hardware store gun LOL never heard that one before....but yea, the hardware store in Bugtussle,Pennsyltucky...traded 6 bussels of corn

 

[Legendarylawman]

Hardware store gun LOL never heard that one before....but yea, the hardware store in Bugtussle,Pennsyltucky...traded 6 bussels of corn

Just me being me.. LOL.

 

[Tijeras_Slim]

A minor bulge never bothered me. I had a 29-1 with an 8 and 3/8 inch barrel that was ringed an inch back from the muzzle. It would do cigarette pack sized groups of 25-50 rounds at 20 yards even with my poor shooting skills. Shot most .44 Specials out of it.

 

[glowe]

Hand fitting was required on the pre-WWII Magna stocks, so ALL original factory stocks would have a serial number matching the gun. That number was required to unite the frame and matching stocks after bluing and finishing. The big question I now have after this discussion is pre-1935 guns with an error in the letters? I believe that Don or Mike would be happy to correct them since when sold one would not want to mislead the buyer.

 

[glowe]

Hardware store gun LOL never heard that one before....but yea, the hardware store in Bugtussle,Pennsyltucky...traded 6 bussels of corn

There were several hardware stores that purchased a huge amount of S&Ws over time. The reason is that they were distributors for different regions of the country including Shapleigh Hardware and Simmons Hardware, both in in St. Louis, MO who supplied the west half of the country's gun shops and smaller hardware stores. Other hardware stores/distributors included Harley, Belknap, Tryon, Dunlap, Folsom, Robinson, etc.

 

[AudieMurphy]

There were several hardware stores that purchased a huge amount of S&Ws over time. The reason is that they were distributors for different regions of the country including Shapleigh Hardware and Simmons Hardware, both in in St. Louis, MO who supplied the west half of the country's gun shops and smaller hardware stores. Other hardware stores/distributors include Harley, Belknap, Tryon, Dunlap, Folsom, Robinson, etc.

Big Deal, that in itself doesn't increase the value of a gun...not to be mean....Once it leaves the Hardware store, then what? They never kept records for individual sales. It was cash and carry. Again not to be mean

 

[zywina]

Re, the Magna grips, just a side note my Reg#36 shipped May of 1935 came with Magnas and grip adapter.
Love the OD, wish I had one, cause I mostly shoot 38 Special in my 357 Mags

 

[wheelgun610]

Big Deal, that in itself doesn't increase the value of a gun...

No one was implying that it increased the value of a gun. Just stating the fact that S&W sold and shipped guns to many hardware stores back in the day. I'm old enough to remember a time when many, if not most small town hardware stores sold guns.

 

[glowe]

Re, the Magna grips, just a side note my Reg#36 shipped May of 1935 came with Magnas and grip adapter.
Love the OD, wish I had one, cause I mostly shoot 38 Special in my 357 Mags

Serial number on the right stock?

 

[DARE]

zywina,
Here is a page from the 1941 S&W catalog.
Says.... Note: The Wesson Grip Adaptor cannot be used with the Magna stock.
Do you have a letter that says the gun shipped with Magna stocks and grip adaptor in May of 1935?

 

[AZ Rebel]

Here's the letter for the April 1932 HD. It lists being shipped with Magna stocks. Unfortunately, the actual stocks on my HD are numbered to a 1938 vintage S&W. The evidence for pre 1935 Magna grips seems inconclusive. It seems I need 2 pairs of pre war service grips to be period correct. I'll keep the Magna on my HD though, it looks, feels and shoots better with them.

 

[wheelgun610]

The evidence for pre 1935 Magna grips seems inconclusive...

When you consider that S&W chose to call those "Magna" stocks, and that that name was derived from their "Magnum" revolver, it's easier to understand why so many of us have come to accept that those stocks came along after the .357 Magnum revolver was introduced - in 1935. I'm thinking it may have even been 1936 when the stocks were introduced. I've got a '37 vintage HD in the 49000 S/N range that still wears the numbered magnas it shipped with. And yes, they're definitely more comfy to shoot with than any of the service stocks ever were. Not to mention, they also look much better.

 

[Casual Smith Nut]

Re, the Magna grips, just a side note my Reg#36 shipped May of 1935 came with Magnas and grip adapter.
Love the OD, wish I had one, cause I mostly shoot 38 Special in my 357 Mags

I'll trade you an OD for your RM.


To the OP: what a cool gun! I hope you shoot it and enjoy it. You didn't pay too much if it's what you wanted. I find the proportions of the 5 inch N frames to be perfection. 4 inch isn't too shabby either…
My OD is a standard 6.5 inch. Though it shoots great, my 5 inch HD balances better.

 

[DARE]

Nothing wrong with having more than one set of grips for a gun. Maybe one that is correct for show and something that is better for shooting on range days.

 

[glowe]

Here's the letter for the April 1932 HD. It lists being shipped with Magna stocks. Unfortunately, the actual stocks on my HD are numbered to a 1938 vintage S&W. The evidence for pre 1935 Magna grips seems inconclusive . . .

I think if you read over all the posts, you will see that the evidence is conclusive. Engineering changes do exist that state these stocks were introduced in September 1935. Personally, I would seek a correction of the letters out there on guns made prior to 1935 stating Magna stocks. Best not to have misleading documentation on guns that have Magna stocks without matching serial numbers. No one yet has come forward with matching serial numbers on their stocks lettered before 1935?? Also, you have not yet given us the serial number on your set of stocks??

Letters are written with 2 main resources. First the author researches all the factory records for the serial number in question. Second is what you explain or photograph about the gun. What I believe has happened is that the author found no records explaining what type of stocks were on the gun and evidence that it has Magna stocks from the owner. If the owner of these guns would have checked the serial number before requesting the letter, the letter would have perhaps not stated what stocks were on the gun.

 

[JSR III]

Factory or history letters are usually written using a letter template for the specific model. Sometimes if a gun is different those details can be left out due to the standard wording of the template. Or the template was changed to reflect a specific gun and the author failed to change it back for the next letter. Much of the verbiage about the model is boiler plate and doesn't change but the specifics can. Again, humans are writing the letters and sometimes humans make errors. Not saying that is the case here but merely offered as a possible explanation. As someone suggested, you can always reach out to Don to see if the letter is accurate and he will usually send a corrected letter if there is a mistake. It best serves everyone not to have incorrect letters floating around. Merely adds to the confusion.

 

[RKmesa]

I have a HD shipped 4/1932 with Magna grips letter confirmed. The grips the McGivern came with were 70s vintage. I replaced them with 50s vintage magna. Surprisingly, my factory letter says that Mcgiverns were shipped with Magna grips, but all the existing ones I've seen pictured are wearing service grips.

Something is wrong with the letter - that happens. Magna stocks were not available until 1935.