Miami Shootout: A New Twist or Revisionists at Work!

Big Foot

Big Foot

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I realize there has plenty written about the Miami shootout of 1986, but something caught my eye this morning.
Jan Libourel, in his column in Gun World suggested that the outcome would have been different if: the F.B.I.'s top marksmen had not his glasses broke during the ramming of the perp's vehicle and consequently his firing was somewhat inconsequential in terms of results...I guess there will be a new slant on this event for decades to come. I always thought it was poor execution, undermanned, undergunned, and underpowered! Anyway, a new slant on this topic.
 
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You did mean "had not" had his glasses broken - right
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Like everything else that has controversy about it - the theories never end.

Just an observation from the grassy knoll
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Originally posted by Big Foot:
I realize there has plenty written about the Miami shootout of 1986, but something caught my eye this morning.
Jan Libourel, in his column in Gun World suggested that the outcome would have been different if: the F.B.I.'s top marksmen had his glasses broke during the ramming of the perp's vehicle and consequently his firing was somewhat inconsequential in terms of results...I guess there will be a new slant on this event for decades to come. I always thought it was poor execution, undermanned, undergunned, and underpowered! Anyway, a new slant on this topic.
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This is not a new or revisionist theory. Even in '86, it was widely reported that one of the agents (who I believe was either a firearms instructor or SWAT team member) had lost or broken his glasses. As I recall, he was shooting from across the street with a snub nose or 3" revolver, without any hits.
 
My opinion is, some guys are just hard to kill. It was a horrible thing that will be talked about for decades to come. It makes me think bigger bullets are better bullets.
 
Being anesthesized by a copious quantity of self-prescribed drugs no doubt contributes to one's ability to absorb bullets without immediate apparent effect.
 
With all due respect, that incident was wholly mishandled by the FBI.

A "felony car stop" does not begin with ramming another vehicle. That was only the beginning of the problems as there were so many mistakes made by the good guys.

We mourn the loss of SA's Dove and Grogan, but there is consolation in that many LEO's have learned so very much from continued review of this incident.

Be safe.
 
As I recall the fact that one agent lost his glasses in the crash was made clear. As mentioned above that was not the only or even the most problematic. The Agents were looking for these guys and found them. Yet they were seriously under gunned. Also, they were not wearing vests.

Under any reasonable situation these were some difficult hombres to arrest or kill, but the FBI was way less than professional on many levels. Still as also mentioned above, it appears that many of the lessons have been learned.
 
What was the hit count for the leo's during that altercation? How well did they do with their shooting?
 
The FBI made the classic mistake of bringing pistols to a rifle fight. Platt had a mini 14 and did a substantial amount of damage in the first few seconds of the fight. He then went on to kill Grogan and Dove in spite of suffering a fatal wound.

A major tragedy for sure, but it did bring about substantial changes to the weapons the FBI allowed the agents to carry from then on.
 
Originally posted by Jack Flash:
Being anesthesized by a copious quantity of self-prescribed drugs no doubt contributes to one's ability to absorb bullets without immediate apparent effect.
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IIRC, the two bad guys didn't have any drugs or alcohol in their systems. They were well trained, tough, and practiced shooting frequently.

While they got what was coming to them, the price to the FBI Agents was horrendous. There were some critical errors in tactics as well as some bad luck that helped create the tragedy.
 
The glasses thing isn't new. Ben Grogan lost his glasses during the stop, and could barely see to shoot. One of the other guys put his Model 13 on the car seat and it went flying onto the floorboards during the collision. Lessons learned, high price paid.
 
It seems like all the agents had their issue S&W M-13s with 158 SWC ammo. Except one agent had a M-59 S&W 9m/m and he got a lethal heart hit on the guy with the Mini-14 but it took him too long to die.
 
Originally posted by sigp220.45:
One of the other guys put his Model 13 on the car seat and it went flying onto the floorboards during the collision. Lessons learned, high price paid.
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I learned something from it--that's when I quit unholstering and tucking my pistol underneath my thigh for quick access when in a chase or a hot car stop.
 
I think it would only have come out better if the FBI were using sequentially-number stamped, non-lead, green ammunition.
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The Agents were looking for these guys and found them. Yet they were seriously under gunned.
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The FBI made the classic mistake of bringing pistols to a rifle fight.
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+1 on both counts, and what makes it even more difficult to understand is the FBI knew these guys were murders, and that they had previously killed with a rifle (i.e. the homicide at the sand pits 'shooting range'). I don't like to second guess LEO's having been one myself, but they knew these guys had killed before, and with a longgun.
 
There were more units involved in the rolling stakeout than participated in the shootout. Some of those cars had MP5s and AR-15s. When the decision was made to make the stop, those cars weren't in the immediate area, though they arrived shortly after the shooting ended.

There were at least two shotguns in the cars that were involved - Ed Mireles used his, and Gordon McNeil elected to use his handgun.

Mattix wasn't really a factor. Platt did all the killing, and he did it with a 9mm Silvertip an inch from his heart, put there while he was rolling out of his car after the crash.

The agents made the stop to put an end to the killing spree of Platt and Mattix. They could have said, hey guys, lets wait until Bob and Harry are here with their long guns. Maybe by then the shootout would have taken place in a more populated area, and they would have been criticized for being indecisive.

The FBI learned from the sacrifices made by these agents. Thanks to them I have 10mm MP5 available to me at all times - not locked away in a gun vault. I have a .45 ACP pistol with deep penetrating 230 grain hollowpoints on my hip. And I have more training under my belt than they did. If they made mistakes, they did so because they thought they were doing the right thing to protect the citizens of Miami.
 
Since many of you have stated this isn't new news, I guess I just missed it about the glasses in all the Miami posts. To better explain why J. Libourel mentioned this was it was an intro to try various shooting methods that included CQ shooting with your eyes "closed". Thanks for the input...
 
IIRC the TV movie made about the shootout did make a point to show his glasses had been either broken or lost. I have a hard time believing that it didn't have some effect on his shooting.

By the way, that movie: "In the Line of Fire: the FBI Murders" is pretty good for a made-for-TV movie. IIRC the storyline up until the shootout is not all that accurate, but once it starts it definately shows the utter, sustained chaos that must have occurred that day. David Soul and Michael Gross' performances respectively as Platt and Matix alone make it worth watching. It might be a good rental for those who haven't seen it.
 
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I saw that movie and, as we all know hollywood always blows things out of porpotion. However if they were anywhere close to the facts, the thing that stood out most to me was the fact that the agents were seriously under armed. That is I think though one of the most valuable lessons to be learned from that movie. We M-U-S-T guarantee that our LEOS are adequately prepared for situations like this because as each of us gunowners know the BG'S are always going to prepared.
 
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