Found this http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm. It lasted less than 10 minutes
Miami Shootout: A New Twist or Revisionists at Work!
- Thread starter Big Foot
- Start date
Jack Flash
Member
Much was made of the shortcommings of the handguns used. After watching the re-enactment, I wondered if the FBI gave any thought to issuing semi-auto shotguns instead of pumps.
There was absolutely nothing new learned from this gunfight that wasn't known before it happened.
The saddest part of it was the FBIs highly publicized hunt for the best handgun round. What a crock of BS. The handgun ammunition used acted just as it did in any other gunfight in history, poorly and unpredictably. The "best" round, according to the test, was the 10mm, but since their agents couldn't stand to shoot it they had to drop it. I could have told them that and it wouldn't have cost them, or the taxpayers, a penny. When S&W morped it into a round that most of them could shoot they ended up with a cartridge that was no better than a host of others. Again, I could have saved them and a whole bunch of other PDs from buying all new firearms.
All the "new" tactics and techniques that had come out of the lessons that I'd seen were not new, or better even. Most of them were worse. Just like after "The Newhall Incident". The next time this situation lines up again, we're going to see the exact same results. History repeats itself until someone learns how to change it.
Just as I was retiring the state changed the annual requalification exercises. Now officers fire 60 rounds of handgun ammo and 15 rounds of shotgun, 10 if you're not issued slugs. I've also noticed just about every officer doesn't seem to realize he has a shotgun in his cruiser, right behind him. They don't pull them out when they should on hot calls and they don't check them when they start their shift.
I'm done now, it's getting too hard to think straight.
The saddest part of it was the FBIs highly publicized hunt for the best handgun round. What a crock of BS. The handgun ammunition used acted just as it did in any other gunfight in history, poorly and unpredictably. The "best" round, according to the test, was the 10mm, but since their agents couldn't stand to shoot it they had to drop it. I could have told them that and it wouldn't have cost them, or the taxpayers, a penny. When S&W morped it into a round that most of them could shoot they ended up with a cartridge that was no better than a host of others. Again, I could have saved them and a whole bunch of other PDs from buying all new firearms.
All the "new" tactics and techniques that had come out of the lessons that I'd seen were not new, or better even. Most of them were worse. Just like after "The Newhall Incident". The next time this situation lines up again, we're going to see the exact same results. History repeats itself until someone learns how to change it.
Just as I was retiring the state changed the annual requalification exercises. Now officers fire 60 rounds of handgun ammo and 15 rounds of shotgun, 10 if you're not issued slugs. I've also noticed just about every officer doesn't seem to realize he has a shotgun in his cruiser, right behind him. They don't pull them out when they should on hot calls and they don't check them when they start their shift.
I'm done now, it's getting too hard to think straight.
Lighten up. This isn't a personal attack on any officer or agency.
The whole Street Survival movement is geared toward critically analyzing our mistakes and learning from them. Intelligent people try to learn from other people's mistakes.
3rd Gen Neal
Member
I know...and didn't you meen lighten up Francis
G-ManBart
Member
Actually, their hit ratio was pretty decent at first. Dove's near heart shot was actually pretty impressive considering the angle and length of exposure....quite brief. One agent scored hits from about 40yds away (across the street).
Ed Mireles had his vest on (he pulled it on at the last minute) and was still wearing it when loaded into the ambulance...I've seen a picture of that. I've met him and listened to his description of the event and it's pretty fascinating.
One of the significant problems was that the cars stopped under/against a large tree and that put them in the shade. Bad guys in the shade on a bright day with gunsmoke in the air made it nearly impossible to see into from out in the sunlight according to several of the surviving agents.
While there were plenty of mistakes made I think that almost all of law enforcement learned a lot from what happened and that's probably the most important thing about it.
The traditional concept of law enforcement taking cover and returning fire was shown to be faulty when the bad guys are trained in covering fire and movement the way the military teaches it. R,
Ed Mireles had his vest on (he pulled it on at the last minute) and was still wearing it when loaded into the ambulance...I've seen a picture of that. I've met him and listened to his description of the event and it's pretty fascinating.
One of the significant problems was that the cars stopped under/against a large tree and that put them in the shade. Bad guys in the shade on a bright day with gunsmoke in the air made it nearly impossible to see into from out in the sunlight according to several of the surviving agents.
While there were plenty of mistakes made I think that almost all of law enforcement learned a lot from what happened and that's probably the most important thing about it.
The traditional concept of law enforcement taking cover and returning fire was shown to be faulty when the bad guys are trained in covering fire and movement the way the military teaches it. R,
Exactly. The closest I have ever come to training like a fire team (outside of the Army) is Active Shooter training. We LEOs have a tendency to commit our troops piecemeal (as most of us patrol alone) rather than work together, utilizing flanking movements and moving toward the high ground, if possible.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Bart-
If you met Mireles, did he happen to tell you which handgun he actually used? One gun writer says that he had a M-586 or 686. Others say that he had an "issue" M-13. Either way, HE was the killer, and he took out the bad guys with lead HP .38 Plus P rounds. He just put them where they counted. Penetration was ample.
By the way, more than one agent had a S&W 9mm auto.
I do wonder, in view of their intended quarry, why the agents hadn't asked for permission to load .357 ammo. I think the issue stuff then was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip, a very workmanlike load.
The root cause of the problems was largely that the agents treated the trip casually. No vests on most; one gun lying on the seat, where anyone who half thought about it would know that it would fly off in a hard stop. No rifles.
I've seen officers get very casual about checking alarms, too. Most are false, so they become complacent.
Back in the 19th Century, "Punch" ran a cartoon that had two hunters in Africa who had had a little misfortune with a lion. The caption read, "When you go to look for a lion, be very sure that you want to find him." I think it applies to situations like this Miami shootout.
T-Star
flop-shank
US Veteran
Bart, I'm curious about Ed Mireles and how he thinks. Is he a gun guy like us? Perhaps a military vet? Obviosly he has an ample supply of good old all-american guts. Also, why did an obviously bright and disciplined guy like Platt turn into an armed robber? My understanding is that most violent felons don't think in terms of setting long term goals. Obviously Platt didn't fit the stereotype, because a guy doesn't get into Special Forces by being an undisiplined loser. I've got theories, but am curious about what you know. Thanks in advance and sorry for so many questions.
G-ManBart
Member
Honestly, I didn't realize there was any confusion as to which revolver he was carrying. I'll have to look into it as I'm interested myself....I'll see what I can dig up....it's certainly not protected info or anything.
I've been able to handle a couple of the guns involved and seen the M870 from a foot away...it still has dried blood on it so they don't let folks handle it....wow.
I'm sure you're right about the Smith 9mm's as well. They were authorized for SWAT at the time and going off memory Dove had one and at least one other guy did as well. A curious fact is that Dove had less than full magazines, which nobody ever sorted out....one had only something like 9 rounds in it...strange. I'll let you know about the revolver if I can figure it out. R,
G-ManBart
Member
I'd say that Ed Mireles was a gun guy and "true believer". He was actually a firearms instructor later and assigned to the Firearms Training Unit for a while (not sure how long). I'm not 100% certain, but I believe he gives his talk to every new agent class that goes through Quantico and anybody there from state/local LE that's going through the National Academy can attend as it's really different hearing it from the horse's mouth. I remember him saying that at the very end it was step, step, front sight, trigger press....step, step...front sight trigger press. Someone said they took the empty gun out of his hand and he was still clicking away. I'm not sure if he was military prior to the Bureau...would be interesting to know and I'm sure it would be documented somewhere.
Most of the guys there that I know from FTU (my old boss was there for a long time) are fellow true believers. Not all of them are really gun guys in the sense of owning lots of guns and such, but I'd say they often more of the gunfighter mindset. They take their craft VERY seriously and literally tear every little thing down to the finest point to come up with the best training they can possibly give to new agents. Some are PPC champions, Olympic caliber bullseye shooters, outstanding USPSA/IDPA shooters...you name it.
I don't know if anybody has ever come up with a good reason for why Platt and Matix went bad. There's some good evidence that the two may have actually killed each other's wife shortly before the crime spree. If you look up reports on them you'll see that one of the wives "committed suicide" with a shotgun in her mouth...a little odd to say the least. Platt was actually a Ranger and not SF as far as I know. Matix was an MP.
It really would be interesting to know what caused them to switch gears so radically. I do know that bank robbers don't tend to be the most intellectual of criminals, with the exception of the really complex jobs. Often it seems they're folks pushed to the edge by other factors to the point that it suddenly makes sense. That's probably why there seems to be an uptick in bank hold ups now. Heck, I arrested a female bank robber who didn't even tell the getaway driver that she was going to rob the bank!
Now that I think about it, Dove, Grogan and Hanlon all had Smith 459s. R,
flop-shank
US Veteran
Thanks, Bart.
jframe
Member
I've done some reading this afternoon on this subject on other sites, and my question is more or less about the revolvers used. I understand that the validity of the 9mm round was in question after the shootout, and that is one of the primary reasons that the 10mm round was selected and the S&W 1076 was picked as the weapon to use it in. Just what exactly was the reasoning behind replacing the Model 13 revolvers? Were they deemed insufficient as well?
Hi:
During a class I was attending after this "Incident" each member was asked how He/She would have "Handled" the "Stop".
When My turn came I said that knowing that these two violent Felons would resist and was armed with high power weapons,plus would not be taken alive,I would have an unmarked unit with two Officer pull along side of the suspects' vehicle, and "Shotgun" both suspects through the windows.
This went over with the Instructor like a lead baloon.
Jimmy
During a class I was attending after this "Incident" each member was asked how He/She would have "Handled" the "Stop".
When My turn came I said that knowing that these two violent Felons would resist and was armed with high power weapons,plus would not be taken alive,I would have an unmarked unit with two Officer pull along side of the suspects' vehicle, and "Shotgun" both suspects through the windows.
This went over with the Instructor like a lead baloon.
Jimmy
G-ManBart
Member
One of the issues found with the revolvers was that reloading them one handed was pretty hard. One of the agents took a hit to the hand and parts of bone, skin, and muscle literally gunked up the cylinder when he tried to reload and if my memory is correct, I think he only got two rounds chambered because of it. I know that's pretty graphic, but as a learning point, I think it's worth noting.
One of the agents across the street emptied his primary gun and transitioned to his BUG (J-Frame) from his ankle. I think he took one or two shots and realized he was better off reloading his primary gun.
Today was actually our quarterly instructor shoot and I asked a couple of the senior guys about it and they directed me to a source where I can get most, if not all, of the answers but it will be mid-week next week before I can get to it. I believe it's an official source, but not restricted and was probably what was used to do the movies etc. I'm sure it'll have the breakdown of gun models by agent (and bad guys) etc....more to follow. R,
One of the agents across the street emptied his primary gun and transitioned to his BUG (J-Frame) from his ankle. I think he took one or two shots and realized he was better off reloading his primary gun.
Today was actually our quarterly instructor shoot and I asked a couple of the senior guys about it and they directed me to a source where I can get most, if not all, of the answers but it will be mid-week next week before I can get to it. I believe it's an official source, but not restricted and was probably what was used to do the movies etc. I'm sure it'll have the breakdown of gun models by agent (and bad guys) etc....more to follow. R,
Jack Flash
Member
Interesting, if graphic, comments about one-handed revolver reloading.
I would think that similar (or worse) problems would present themselves with one-handed operation of autoloaders, especially if you had to rack the slide. As for contamination, if the slide (or the fresh mag) got gunked up with blood or tissue, seems like problems would be at least as bad as with a gunked up revolver. Am I wrong?
I would think that similar (or worse) problems would present themselves with one-handed operation of autoloaders, especially if you had to rack the slide. As for contamination, if the slide (or the fresh mag) got gunked up with blood or tissue, seems like problems would be at least as bad as with a gunked up revolver. Am I wrong?
G-ManBart
Member
Well, I guess the real answer is "it depends". In general I'd still say the auto is easier to reload one handed and stuff isn't as likely to get in the chamber, but anything can and will happen.
I can see scenarios both ways. Reloading an auto one handed isn't too hard normally. It should lock back, you drop the mag, wedge the gun under your armpit, into your belt/pants or wedged behind your knee, you insert the fresh mag and then either press the muzzle on something (if no solid guide rod is present) or hook the front of the rear sight on your belt, heel of your shoe or any 90* angle you can find and you're back in business. It's a lot harder to get the cylinder open with one hand, and then it wants to flop around while you're putting rounds in one at a time....it can be done, but it's more of a fine motor skill than gross motor skill and fine motor skills deteriorate very quickly under stress.
Loading and shooting a revolver one handed was taught long before 1986. (and it isn't that much different than loading an auto one handed either) I guess it must have been abandoned again by then. The suggestion that the outcome would have been different if the agents had semi autos is just as bad as if they had more powerful handguns. However those were two of the first things the gun "experts" jumped on after the shootout. The only new thing I can think of that came out of the FBI shootout was 'you have to have a high capacity semi auto'.
Firearms trainging changed a lot after 1986, but the result seemed to be officers shot worse during requalification than they did before. Within a few years of the shootout it was hard to tell by officers habits that it ever happened at all.
But what gets me the most is watching officers shoot for requalification. Don't they realize their life depends on their ability to use their weapons?
Firearms trainging changed a lot after 1986, but the result seemed to be officers shot worse during requalification than they did before. Within a few years of the shootout it was hard to tell by officers habits that it ever happened at all.
But what gets me the most is watching officers shoot for requalification. Don't they realize their life depends on their ability to use their weapons?
G-ManBart
Member
Oh, those agents were taught one-handed reloading their revolvers as well, but it simply is a more complex action compared with an auto. I can teach someone to one handed reload an auto reasonbly well in about two minutes and be able to expect they could do it under moderate stress. The same simply isn't true with a revolver.
It's certainly doable, but at least for one agent parts of his hand in the cylinder made it almost impossible which wouldn't have been the case with an auto. Autos have their own flaws, but reloading, in general, isn't one of them.
I know our qualifications changed and have kept some of the core elements learned from that incident....we start at 25yds and shoot 18 of our 50 rounds from there. If you can't hit from 25 you can't pass the course.
As an instructor I don't put too much emphasis on qual courses...they're a pop quiz where the questions are known in advance. I try to work with our folks to make them better shooters....really do training, not just qualifying. R,
