Missing Serial Number

[EME37]

I have a S&W HE, .455, that has no serial number on the butt nor on the front grip strap. It is either a first or second model. The Canadian Firearms Program serial number of record is 3311, which would make it a first model, except I cannot find that number anywhere on this gun. I did find a number, 37xxx, on the back of the cylinder and on the underside of the ejector star. If this is in fact the serial number it is a second model and registration and identification complications abound which I will have to address with CFP.
Other info available; barrel is 6 1/2 inch marked on the left side "SMITH & WESSON .455.", Hand Ejector fixed sight, strain screw in front grip strap, fitted with a butt swivel and has five screws.
I've had the side plate off and there are no visible numbers though I didn't dismantle the innards.
I there anywhere else I can look for the serial number?
Can anyone provide more information as to just what I have?

 

[Camster]

Welcome. That is the serial number.Well at least the serial number of the cylinder-it might not be original to the gun, though it probably is.I think a number should be found within the barrel ejector shroud.

 

[glowe]

Easy spots to check are the rear of the cylinder, the bottom of the barrel , the backside of the extractor star, on the yoke as seen looking through a cylinder chamber, and more. Also, the right stock should have a number. Your gun has a serial number as you located on the cylinder and back of the star and not the number listed by the government. Your gun is a 37,XXX serial number is a 2nd Model without a ejector rod shroud. The revolver would be illegal if in the US, since without a serial number in the proper location on the bottom of the butt-frame, it would not be accepted by the BAFT as a legal gun to own.

Look at the assembly numbers on the inside of the yoke when the cylinder is open and on the frame at that location. I am curious what the number is since it is often confused as being a serial number.

 

[EME37]

Thanks Camster. There is no ejector rod shroud.

Thank glowe. There is no number on the yoke as seen through a chamber and there is no number on either stock. There is an assembly number "1111" on the yoke and frame, and that same number "1111", is also on the inside of the side plate.
I believe you are right in that the serial number is 37xxx. First thing in the new year I'll get on to the RCMP to see what I should do next.

 

[Art Doc]

I was at harbor Freight tools yesterday and they had a stamp set for about $10. If I had a gun with the serial on the barrel and the cylinder but removed from the butt I know what I would do. I would stamp that number on the grip frame under the stock panel and say nothing to nobody. No idea what Canadian law is but in the U.S. the serial must be on the frame. The feds will often allow the serial to be stamped on the frame as I described if the original number is disfigured. I would just do it and not involve any authorities who may be in a bad mood that day.

 

[EME37]

Thanks Art Doc. I have considered that action but discarded the idea because there is already a serial number recorded on the registration, which is four digits, but not found anywhere on the gun.

 

[glowe]

Thanks Camster. There is no ejector rod shroud.

Thank glowe. There is no number on the yoke as seen through a chamber and there is no number on either stock. There is an assembly number "1111" on the yoke and frame, and that same number "1111", is also on the inside of the side plate.
I believe you are right in that the serial number is 37xxx. First thing in the new year I'll get on to the RCMP to see what I should do next.

It is very small. Sometimes you need to remover the cylinder in order to clean up the serial number location enough to see it. Also did you check underside the barrel on the flat? Another place that requires a magnifying glass.

 

[EME37]

Yes, I've checked all those places and the "official", four digit serial number is nowhere to be found. The back of the cylinder and the underside of the ejector star is where I found 37xxx. There are no other numbers except for the assembly number to be found. And that's with a bright light and a magnifying glass.

 

[mikepriwer]

Already having a Canadian registration serial number suggests to me that as far as Canada is concerned, the gun is legal. I would have no problem talking with your authorities, telling them that you'd like to restore the serial number to the butt.

Mike Priwer

 

[tenntex32]

I'll ask the obvious question...……..

If the Canadian Firearms serial number of record is a number that is not found anywhere on the revolver......could it simply be that this record s/n is not for this specific gun? How do you know one belongs with the other?

I mean .455 revolvers are somewhat common up there, yes? Could it simply be a case of the wrong gun for the serial number of record?

Just curious as to what leads you to believe one pertains to the other if you have no similar numbers actually on the revolver matching the serial number of record?

Really wondering how all of this works up there in Canada.

Dale.

 

[6string]

Already having a Canadian registration serial number suggests to me that as far as Canada is concerned, the gun is legal. I would have no problem talking with your authorities, telling them that you'd like to restore the serial number to the butt.

Mike Priwer

Mike is exactly right. I worked in the firearms industry in Canada, albeit some years ago, and if your firearms control officer is satisfied, and you have that certificate, you're covered.
These folks are looking to make their jobs go smoothly and are not looking to get complicated.

Jim

 

[Tom K]

I was at harbor Freight tools yesterday and they had a stamp set for about $10. If I had a gun with the serial on the barrel and the cylinder but removed from the butt I know what I would do. I would stamp that number on the grip frame under the stock panel and say nothing to nobody. No idea what Canadian law is but in the U.S. the serial must be on the frame. The feds will often allow the serial to be stamped on the frame as I described if the original number is disfigured. I would just do it and not involve any authorities who may be in a bad mood that day.

This really should be the stock answer, automatically PM'd to anyone who asks about an obliterated serial number on an old gun like this, and the thread locked.

 

[Art Doc]

Thanks Art Doc. I have considered that action but discarded the idea because there is already a serial number recorded on the registration, which is four digits, but not found anywhere on the gun.

Which would ensure confiscation where I live. I would stamp the number and let whoever wrote down a nonexistent number explain why he did that.

But you do as you see fit. You say you're fine as is so why did you even bring it up?

 

[DWalt]

Re SN 37xxx, assuming that is the correct serial number, it would be a second model. Their SN range is 5462 to 74755, and all were shipped during the 1915-17 period. Yours was very possibly shipped in mid-1916 based on SNs of others I have listed.

 

[Absalom]

...
If the Canadian Firearms serial number of record is a number that is not found anywhere on the revolver......could it simply be that this record s/n is not for this specific gun? How do you know one belongs with the other?
.....

Not knowing the Canadian system at all, I’d have the same question.

My name is widely known in these parts not to be John Smith, so if I were found to carry a drivers license bearing that name, the assumption of the police would not be that everybody had been wrong and I must be John Smith, but that I was carrying someone else’s license

 

[Hondo44]

Re SN 37xxx, assuming that is the correct serial number, it would be a second model. Their SN range is 5462 to 74755, and all were shipped during the 1915-17 period. Yours was very possibly shipped in mid-1916 based on SNs of others I have listed.

Roy has recently confirmed and I've posted that the 2nd model begins with #5801.

 

[Hondo44]

Yes, I've checked all those places and the "official", four digit serial number is nowhere to be found. The back of the cylinder and the underside of the ejector star is where I found 37xxx. There are no other numbers except for the assembly number to be found. And that's with a bright light and a magnifying glass.

There has to be a tiny serial # on the rear (vertical side) of the yoke. Did you remove the yoke, take the cyl off of it, and clean the area with a brush to look?

If it's not there, you should see some file marks or other evidence of removal.

Does the bottom of the barrel have a shroud that partly encloses the extractor rod? Do you know how to tell if it's a Triple Lock?

 

[mbliss57]

I'll ask the obvious question...……..

If the Canadian Firearms serial number of record is a number that is not found anywhere on the revolver......could it simply be that this record s/n is not for this specific gun? How do you know one belongs with the other?

I mean .455 revolvers are somewhat common up there, yes? Could it simply be a case of the wrong gun for the serial number of record?

Just curious as to what leads you to believe one pertains to the other if you have no similar numbers actually on the revolver matching the serial number of record?

Really wondering how all of this works up there in Canada.

Dale.

This is an obvious question to me as well..
How can a gun w/o any trace of a specific serial number be tied back to a Registration that has said serial number? (Canadien or any country / state for that matter?)

 

[EME37]

Thanks to all who offered opinions, advice and info. My concern and reason for raising the issue is two fold; the gun is untraceable as is, and as a collector I want solid proof of what I'm holding.
A possible explanation for the wrong serial number on record: the assembly number is extremely small and in one place the first two digits could be mistaken for threes.
When S&W opens after the holiday I will contact them to see if they can confirm the correct serial number.
In the meantime I'll sign off for now and thanks again to everyone who responded.

 

[Muley Gil]

Thanks to all who offered opinions, advice and info. My concern and reason for raising the issue is two fold; the gun is untraceable as is, and as a collector I want solid proof of what I'm holding.
A possible explanation for the wrong serial number on record: the assembly number is extremely small and in one place the first two digits could be mistaken for threes.
When S&W opens after the holiday I will contact them to see if they can confirm the correct serial number.
In the meantime I'll sign off for now and thanks again to everyone who responded.

I really doubt that anyone currently working at S&W can help, judging by responses from other Forum members that have posted their experiences. Roy Jinks, the historian, could provide a letter telling you when and where the cylinder and extractor were shipped, but without a SN on the frame, he can't tell you anything more. I personally have and have had several revolvers that I have put together with mismatched parts.

 

[glowe]

. . . Does the bottom of the barrel have a shroud that partly encloses the extractor rod? Do you know how to tell if it's a Triple Lock?

Jim, asked and answered in post #4.

Thanks Camster. There is no ejector rod shroud.

Thank glowe. There is no number on the yoke as seen through a chamber and there is no number on either stock . . .

As for the sn# on the rear of the yoke, the OP indicates there was no number on the yoke, but did not comment on whether there was any evidence that the number could have been removed?

 

[flagman1776]

Since you can explain the assembly number as the wrongly listed SN on the paperwork... perhaps the authorities would accept that. I wonder if one "discovered" the correct SN hidden by the grips that might be a way out.
At one time, in the US, FFL customizers were permitted, with prior ATF approval, to mark the SN on the frame somewhere else prior to removing the original SN location... guns like the ASP & Devel.

 

[mm93]

If it was mine and in the same circumstances, I'd simply leave it alone. Nobody is hassling you now, or questioning it. And it's already on their records, so you've done nothing wrong. Simply leave well enough alone, and continue on with no changes.

 

[mikepriwer]

It occurs to me that the cylinder and extractor both bearing the number 37XXX, suggests that these two parts go with each other, but they may (or may not) have any relevance to the gun. Ie, with no other numbers on the gun that seem meaningful, maybe this is some kind of parts-gun, and the cylinder came from either another gun, or was lying around when this gun was assembled.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Muley Gil]

Since you can explain the assembly number as the wrongly listed SN on the paperwork... perhaps the authorities would accept that. I wonder if one "discovered" the correct SN hidden by the grips that might be a way out.
At one time, in the US, FFL customizers were permitted, with prior ATF approval, to mark the SN on the frame somewhere else prior to removing the original SN location... guns like the ASP & Devel.

Back in the late '70s and early '80s, a gunsmith didn't have to get BATF approval so long as the SN was stamped on the frame prior to its removal from the factory location.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim, asked and answered in post #4.

Thank you Gary, I saw that. But when we have an apparent 'mystery gun' like this I like to double check. I've been given a 'yes' on the shroud before only to find out the OP meant the extractor lug, not a true shroud.

I've also been told there's no yoke serial # or no # back of the extractor star only to find out they were actually there.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks to all who offered opinions, advice and info. My concern and reason for raising the issue is two fold; the gun is untraceable as is, and as a collector I want solid proof of what I'm holding.
A possible explanation for the wrong serial number on record: the assembly number is extremely small and in one place the first two digits could be mistaken for threes.
When S&W opens after the holiday I will contact them to see if they can confirm the correct serial number.
In the meantime I'll sign off for now and thanks again to everyone who responded.

I agree that misuse of and misreading of the assembly in the yoke is the likely answer to this conundrum.

But no way S&W can help clear it up. If you tell them you have an N frame 455, they might be able confirm that your #37XXX is a 2nd model BSR. And they might be able to confirm that #3311 is a BSR Triple Lock. But we already know both of those things. How does that help you?

It's not so much who is working at S&W that you'll talk to (although that has been a problem), as the fact that no matter who it is, they cannot confirm which assembly #s are for your gun, or which assembly #s are on gun # 37XXX or #3311.

But we can confirm the barrel is replaced (or # removed), and the cyl/extractor star may or may not be replaced w/o the yoke serial #.

We also know that there are two problems:

1. it was likely not registered with the serial #, but instead with a misread assembly #, and
2. something is afoul with the butt # missing, the barrel # missing, and as you say, the yoke # missing.

 

[glowe]

Forgot to bring up the obvious question - why do people remove serial numbers?? It makes me very nervous to have any gun in my possession that is missing the serial number where it was usually located. We know it was there when it left the factory, but the ugly word "stolen" regularly comes to mind.

For my peace of mind, I would personally clear it up with the government first and then make sure the serial number was replaced. One must be prepared, however, for the worst possible outcome - confiscation when going down this road. Someday, you will sell or pass down this gun and who knows what can of worms the wrong serial number could open in the future. Good luck with whatever decision you make and keep us posted.

 

[kwill1911]

Just a reminder about US law:

For those advocating getting a stamp set and "just doing it..." I agree there is a low probability of getting caught but why risk a felony conviction over a junk gun?

 

[paplinker]

Just a reminder about US law:

For those advocating getting a stamp set and "just doing it..." I agree there is a low probability of getting caught but why risk a felony conviction over a junk gun?

I have passed on two S&Ws now that were for sale at gun shows that had blank serial numbers on the butt. Remembering this letter was what immediately came to mind.

It is curious why the frame was not mentioned.