Moddel 3?

[chuck_D]

HI new member here. I am hoping that someone will be able to provide me with some insight on to what I have. I recently acquired this revolver from my dad and he wants me to try and find out more info. From what I have found I believe it to be a model 3 2nd model russian. My main delima is that there is no "russian" marking on the gun at all. I am led to beleive its a 2nd model due to the pinned front sight, the hump above the grip and the 7" barrel. The top of the barrel is marked - "Smith&WessonSpringfieldMass.U.S.A.Pat.Jan.17&24.65.July.11.65.Aug.24.69.Jan.19.1875.ReissueJuly.25.1871". The bottom of the grip has three different markings on it 1st is 1874 then 2nd is 7767 and the third marking is a P. Now onto some pics and any info will be greatly appreciated thanks for the help.

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[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. Your revolver certainly looks like a standard Model 3 Russian, 2nd Model that was manufactured from 1873 to 1878. Yours is an early serial number, so maybe first or second year of production. Commercial and contract guns with serial numbers 1-9000 were stamped "REISSUE". The "P" is usually associated with a US military inspector mark, but the Model 3, 2nd Issue was not adopted by the US government. Hopefully, someone knows why there is a US inspector mark on your Russian.

 

[jleiper]

The REISSUE revolvers were marked for contracts to other governments - not Russia. It didn't seem like it was a good idea to mark it "Russian Model" when it was going to some one else, especially Turkey a long time enemy of Russia. There were 9000 revolvers in this series and they have their own serial number series. The first 1000 have the same marking as the standard model 3, the remaining 8000 revolvers have the REISSUE barrel mark. There are both second and third models marked this way - I've seen examples of both. THe each seem to have their own serial number series.
The guns in the Turkish contract were inspected by Charles Woodman the US inspector. If this is a Turkish, there will be a small "w" stamped in the butt. The 'P' is considered a Martial inspection, but not necessarily a US mark. It is seen on First Model Russian contract revolvers as well.
Joe

 

[jleiper]

I photo shopped the barrel mark, it is a Japanese contract.

Joe
BTW it is interesting to see the 1874 mark on the butt of another second model. (51682 has it as well)

 

[chuck_D]

Thanks for the help jleiper I appreciate it. Now if my father and myself decided to part ways with this revolver what does anyone think the fair market value of the thing would be?

 

[jleiper]

Do the serial on the barrel, barrel latch, cylinder face, and frame match? I don't remember if this contract was assembly numbered.
Joe

 

[chuck_D]

yes all the serial numbers do match.

 

[glowe]

There were 9000 revolvers in this series and they have their own serial number series. The first 1000 have the same marking as the standard model 3, the remaining 8000 revolvers have the REISSUE barrel mark. The 'P' is considered a Martial inspection, but not necessarily a US mark.
Joe

Good catch Joe. I missed the Japanese mark. A further breakdown of the 9000 is that there were 3000 Turkish Models, 5,000 Japanese Models with the REISSUE mark and another 1000 commercial. As Joe states, some early production used RUSSIAN MODEL stampings.

Also, I found that manufacturing dates are different than shipping dates and I find that most of the revolvers near your serial number were shipped around 1880, so the did not go out the door immediately. As I recall, the Japanese Navy contract was filled in 1879 to 1880.

One interesting observation is that I have a RUSSIAN MODEL with serial number 51682 that has a P mark on the butt, but no other indication of martial service anywhere.

As for value, since there were only 5000 made, plus they were all sent to Japan, they are rare in the US. It is difficult to tell the exact condition of your Model 3, but I would guess the condition is between Very Good to Good, due to quite a bit of wear to the original finish. Standard Model 3s would range from $1000 to $1300 in this condition, but the Japanese marking could fetch up to $2000. Supica's SCSW states that the Japanese contract guns will garner a 25% premium.

 

[jleiper]

Good catch Joe. I missed the Japanese mark. A further breakdown of the 9000 is that there were 3000 Turkish Models, 5,000 Japanese Models with the REISSUE mark and another 1000 commercial. As Joe states, some early production used RUSSIAN MODEL stampings.

Also, I found that manufacturing dates are different than shipping dates and I find that most of the revolvers near your serial number were shipped around 1880, so the did not go out the door immediately. As I recall, the Japanese Navy contract was filled in 1879 to 1880.

One interesting observation is that I have a RUSSIAN MODEL with serial number 51682 that has a P mark on the butt, but no other indication of martial service anywhere.

As for value, since there were only 5000 made, plus they were all sent to Japan, they are rare in the US. It is difficult to tell the exact condition of your Model 3, but I would guess the condition is between Very Good to Good, due to quite a bit of wear to the original finish. Standard Model 3s would range from $1000 to $1300 in this condition, but the Japanese marking could fetch up to $2000. Supica's SCSW states that the Japanese contract guns will garner a 25% premium.

Be careful here. There were Japanese contracts for Second models and contracts for Third models as well.
Only the first 1000 Second Model contract revolvers in the export series have the marking like a second model American (I think that these were for Turkey as well). The 3000 Turkish model and 5000 Japanese were marked REISSUE.

There were also 5000 Turkish and 1000 Japanese Third model No. 3 revolvers manufactured. These were also in a new serial number series! These are seen with the Japanese anchor mark on the butt like the New Model No. 3s.

Additionally, there were two orders of New Model Number 3s for the Japanese Navy. These would have been the revolvers shipped in 1879-80.
Joe

 

[glowe]

I was going by what Roy Jinks book states, so I assume he is incorrect? Serial number ranges on these models is confusing at best and maybe his totals reflect entire production run and not just those first 9000?

Model 3 2nd Model
Turkish Models 3000
Japanese Models 5000

Model 3 3rd Model
Turkish Models 5000
Japanese Models 1000

 

[jleiper]

I was going by what Roy Jinks book states, so I assume he is incorrect? Serial number ranges on these models is confusing at best and maybe his totals reflect entire production run and not just those first 9000?

Model 3 2nd Model
Turkish Models 3000
Japanese Models 5000

Model 3 3rd Model
Turkish Models 5000
Japanese Models 1000

I agree that Jinks' information is quite confusing.
The other, non-Russian, martial contracts of the No. 3 are not my field of interest, but I have been forced to study them in conjunction with my study of the Russian contracts of the period.

Model 3 2nd Model non-Russian contracts serial range 1-9000
1000 revolvers Turkish contract (1874) serials 1-1000 Commercially marked .44 Henry RF

2000 revolvers Turkish contract (1877 for a total of 7000 revolvers) serials within 1001-9000 range REISSUE marked.44 Henry RF(?). Jinks states that there were only 2000 2nd models produced in this contract, but then states 3000 produced? It could be that he is counting the first 1000 (1874) in the 3000 and then that there were another 1000 produced in this series for other governments? Confusing, to say the least!

5000 revolvers Japanese contract within serial range 1001-9000. Not all of the revolvers in this contract were for naval use, some of these are Japanese Navy marked and some have a different Japanese acceptance mark - like the one seen in this thread.

It is assumed that these two last two contracts are mixed within the serial range 1001-9000, serial range 1-1000 was definitely for Turkey only.

Model 3 3rd Model non-Russian contracts with a new serial range 1-6000
5000 revolvers Turkish contract (1877 for a total of 7000) serials in a NEW range 1-6000 mostly .44 Henry RF(?) (I have seen one in centerfire).

1000 revolvers Japanese Naval contract serials in the new range 1-6000 .44 Russian. Japanese Naval anchor marks are commonly seen on these.
Again it is assumed that these two contracts were were mixed in the new serial range.

As to delivery dates, the Turks needed the revolvers desperately - they were at war with Russia. All of these seem to have been delivered by 1878 as there was no production of the No. 3 after 1878.

Joe

 

[glowe]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll bet when you have this down to a science and every number is in its place, someone will show up with an anomaly. Always seems to happen with S&Ws.

Let me ask you if you have any idea why my #3 2nd Model has a "P" stamped in the butt with no other markings? Maybe a left over frame that had already been stamped for foreign service??

 

[jleiper]

"If you ain't confused, you ain't been payin' attention!"

I have no idea. I have seen and have examples of all kinds of inspector marks on the butts and other parts of Contract No. 3s, but very little experience with the commercial revolvers.

Most first contract/ first model revolvers have a circled 'D' but a few have a 'P' on the cylinder but a Russian letter 'Д' on the butt. There is commonly a 'P' on the barrel extension but overall, other than the 'Д' on the butt there is no consistancy.

Early second models have a 'D' on the butt and cylinder face, later ones no mark at all on the butt but a 'D' on the cylinder. I've seen one with a 'G' on the left side of the barrel extension and an 'E' on the cylinder face but no mark on the butt.

Third models with an 'M' on the butt and cylinder face seem to be fourth contract, but later contracts seem to have the 'Д' on the butt and cylinder face.

In other words, I don't think that the inspector marks mean anything other than making the inspection traceable to an inspector. The style of markings seems to have changed in the later contracts after the arrival of H. Kouschakevich - the small circle 'П' appears on Ordinetz's last contracts, but the large circle 'П' is only seen later.

It is possible that your late 2nd model is a reject from the Russian contracts and put into the late commercial serial number series because commercial production of the 2nd model was already transitioned over to the 3rd model. However, the 'P' style marking could indicate it was a leftover part put into a revolver at the end of production, hence the out of range serial. Who knows?

BTW All production of the 3rd model was terminated in January of 1878. Odds and ends of old production were cleared out of the factory by May of 1878 so all No. 3s had to have been numbered and shipped at that point.
Joe

 

[chuck_D]

Well thank you kindly gentlemen. I appreciate all the info and I am now rather excited to own such an interesting and old firearm.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Gary and Joe, I recently saw some pictures of a rather rough and rusted looking Model 3 in Henry rimfire. The owner cannot find any serial numbers or patent info on it. I suspect it is a copy. Was it common for copies to lack SNs? Most of the ones I've seen had something on them.

 

[glowe]

Gary and Joe, I recently saw some pictures of a rather rough and rusted looking Model 3 in Henry rimfire. The owner cannot find any serial numbers or patent info on it. I suspect it is a copy. Was it common for copies to lack SNs? Most of the ones I've seen had something on them.

It may be rusted enough to lose the sn? I would think it would be odd to copy a Model 3 in 44 rimfire unless it was manufactured in the Middle East and not Europe. I only have one S&W copy in 44-40 and there are no serial numbers in the usual locations. It has a 12 on the frame on the left side under the cylinder and an 8 on the right side in the same location. It also has the ELG oval signifying Belgium. It also came with a copy of a Bridgeport rig! If it was a Turkish copy, they may not have been keen on stamping anything on the gun.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Ok, thanks. It was missing its pivot bolt and was severely rusted. Owner insisted he couldn't find any numbers on it anywhere. I thought it might be a Spanish copy, but there was usually something on the ones I've seen. Oh, well, lot's of interesting stuff out there.

 

[jleiper]

That is definitely a Belgian copy 1880-prox 1900.
The Belgains made "huge amounts" of these and sold them to officers all over Europe - remember that officers in most armies in that period had to purchase their own sidearms. It was quite common for Russian officers to buy Belgian copies of the DA Smiths in 44 Russian from the Officer Supply Stores in Moscow and St. Petersburg. I even have a couple in my collection.
And Yes, it is not uncommon for them to have no serial number.
If one of these is in Rimfire in this period of time, it was probably intended for Turkish use. The Belgians definitely sold to any purchaser with money!
Joe

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Thanks, Joe. Interesting information!