Model 12 Winchester 16 gauge

[rchall]

I have seen a Winchester Model 12 that is for sale, but not sure what kind of money this gun should bring. 16 gauge, 26" barrel, full choke, solid rib. The gun has a straight English stock and a small round forearm. The finest checkering I have ever seen on one of these guns. Also, it has black diamonds on either side of the grip. The gun, by its serial#, looks like it was made in the early 1920's. All original and in excellent condition. Oh, and it also has the short chamber that it came from the factory with plus an old leather mutton case that it was stored in. Beautiful fancy wood. Just a real nice outfit, so what kind of money are we talking about here??

 

[spricks]

I'm not sure exactly what those are going for right now. Most had a plain barrel without the rib so you are looking at the higher grade ones for sure....prolly $500 range i'm thinkin...

spricks

 

[P&R Fan]

I'm not really up on current values, but I'd guess closer to $1,000. Sounds really nice. The short chamber is a drawback if you want to shoot it, but there are shells available somewhere for it if you look hard enough.
I have 4 M12s. Two 12 Gauge guns, a 20 Gauge and a 16 Gauge. I shoot the 16 Gauge best. It has a smaller receiver than the 12 Gauge, and just balances perfectly for me.
Jim

 

[Dominus_Lex]

I am no expert but there are a lot of Model 12's out there and the price's are all over the place. I would assume that the 16 gauge is a bit of a plus as the 12's and 20's are more common. As with most Winchesters condition is everything. A basic 12 or 20 will run in the $500 range at a gunshow, with a really clean 20 gage skeet running up to 5x more.

For what it is worth look at this listing from Cabela's (say what you want about them they have a lot of old guns in stock, and high overhead), this should give you a place to work from:

Cabela's: Gun Library: Winchester Model 12 16 Ga.

And here is a high end 16 gauge:

Cabela's: Gun Library: Winchester Model 12 Upgraded Grade 5 16 Gauge

Final thought on Winchester shotguns, I know I have paid too much for some in the past, but I know the only regrets I have about them are for the ones I passed up....

 

[s&wchad]

In decent condition and factory original, a "Black Diamond" Trap grade Model 12 brings good money. The gun should have "TRAP" stamped on the bottom front of the receiver. 16ga is a bit unusual, I'm sure most were 12ga. I think $1000 is way low, especially if it has a lot of original finish. They were offered with a straight or a pistol grip stock and came with the cute little forearm you described. The raised mated rib (solid) was standard, but vent ribs were available. The black diamonds inletted into the stock just behind the receiver are ebony.

Pictures, more info...

 

[rchall]

OK, gun is NOT marked as a TRAP on the bottom of the barrel extension. However, I have read and been told that they did make some high grade guns with the features I have listed without the TRAP marking. It is at least a 90% gun and maybe more. The wood is really beautiful, maybe a 3-4X grade with alot of figure in it. I don't think it has ever been refinished or anything like that. Would it be worth a couple grand???

 

[410bore]

In decent condition and factory original, a "Black Diamond" Trap grade Model 12's brings good money. The gun should have "TRAP" stamped on the bottom front of the receiver. 16ga is a bit unusual, I'm sure most were 12ga. I think $1000 is way low, especially if it has a lot of original finish. They were offered with a straight or a pistol grip stock and came with the cute little forearm you described. The raised mated rib (solid) was standard, but vent ribs were available. The black diamonds inletted into the stock just behind the receiver are ebony.

Pictures, more info...

this all sounds good to me but i do think some were made that werent stamped TRAP

 

[s&wchad]

OK, gun is NOT marked as a TRAP on the bottom of the barrel extension. However, I have read and been told that they did make some high grade guns with the features I have listed without the TRAP marking. It is at least a 90% gun and maybe more. The wood is really beautiful, maybe a 3-4X grade with alot of figure in it. I don't think it has ever been refinished or anything like that. Would it be worth a couple grand???

It could be worth $2,000, but be careful. I wouldn't pay that much, but I probably would shell out $1,000 if I was confident it was factory wood. I'd feel more at ease if the gun was marked trap. Factory letters from Cody are not available on guns made after about 1906 (except for Model 21's), so there's no confirmation.
An original Black diamond stock set is worth a good chunk of change, but I doubt the seller will let you pull the stock to see if the inletting looks like factory work. Keep in mind that the gun is just a solid rib 16ga without the fancy wood.

 

[rchall]

Sound advice. I have seen a couple 12's with fancy wood that were not marked trap. As is known Winchester would do about anything if a customer would pay for it. So, it very well could be an original. All I really know is that it is a very nice gun for its age. Doesn't look like it was used alot, mostly just sat in a gun cabinet or rested in that case.

 

[2152hq]

AFAIK, (and I am often wrong!) a TRAP grade from that early should have 'Trap' stamped onto the bottom of the bbl extension regardless of the gauge.
But you just hate to say 'always' in this business,,410bore makes the point.

The 26" bbl, Full choke and raised matted solid rib (or plain matted bbl) would be correct for an early TRAP in 16ga.
Only the one bbl length offered in 16ga I believe,, w/Mod choke as an option.
Black Diamond stocks standard.
Stocks could be had in either straight or pistol grip. Fitted w/a rubber recoil pad. Most any stock dimension was done to the customers wishes.
Winchester brought out their own logo marked pad in the early to mid '20s.
I think the first pads used were Silvers Pads. Don't know if you could get them to put any of the others available at the time on the gun.

Without the 'TRAP' marking, I'd look at it very carefully.
Get a true M12 collector that knows the small details of these to look at it or the specs.

The TRAP grade was a semi custom Grade,,not necessarily a Trap Gun. Wood cut to customers specs, a couple of choke choices (even cyl avail in all 3 gauges), Different bbl lengths in 12ga, but no other choices other than 26 in 16ga and 25 in 20ga.
If you wanted more,,like engraving, you stepped up to the Pigeon Grade.
It could simply be a FIELD 16ga w/a solid rib that has had the TRAP wood added.
It wouldn't be the first time it's been done.
Solid rib M12's were available starting almost from the beginning of production,,1913 or 14.



Sounds like a very nice shotgun, The configuration & gauge with that condition would draw alot of attention from collectors if it left the factory that way.
,,,,but if it's not a real TRAP grade,,don't pay for one.

M12's are upgraded on a regular basis,,especially the smaller bores and rarer configurations. They just put a gun together to match what the factory would have built.
Orphaned high grade stocks don't sit for long at a gun show.
Alot of M42's are upgraded in that way to 'DeLuxe' and 'Trap' by upgrading the wood & stamping it w/individual hand stamps into the bbl extension thru the factory bluing,,,,just like the factory did.
Shockingly, there's no factory records available when the owner goes to check the validity of his new purchase.

 

[rchall]

This shotgun has just the hard rubber Winchester marked buttplate. No rubber recoil pad and the stock looks like it's not been cut in any way. I'm a little wary about it not having the TRAP stamping, but who knows?
The black diamonds look original in the grip, too. I'm going to look at it again before I make any hasty decision. What about $1500???

 

[msinc]

If in decent shape I'd pay $1500.00 for it. Does the forend have checkering in the same spacing as the buttstock?? If so it may be a "Tournament" grade which is rather rare. Most Tournament grades didn't have a black diamond stock, and just about every black diamond grade I have seen had a deluxe extended forend. The only way to tell a tournament grade is to pull the buttplate, it will have the word "Tour" written in pencil on the stock. Many of the Tournament grades I have seen including the 20ga solid ribbed one I own had english walnut stocks. Nice Model 12's are rare and expensive...nobody is giving them away these days, they aren't making any more and they will not loose value.

 

[2152hq]

Did they make the Tournament Grade in the early 20's in anything other than 12ga?
I thought they were a 12ga only thing back then.,,but!

Get ahold of the M12 book (Riffle?) if you can and look it up by production year(s). It breaks it down nicely by grade and what was available in each.

It does sound like a nice shotgun.
English grip and raised rib are nice.

Any chance you can take the butt plate off and see if there are extra holes in the wood from a pad being on there.

 

[rchall]

I also have a Tournament grade in 12 gauge that was made in 1923. Boy, they really made guns then. Real fine checkering and immaculate finishing of metal and wood. I shoot mine alot and it kicks like a mule, but doesn't miss a beat chambering, firing, and ejecting. A 20 gauge Tournament in a Mod. 12. Now that's a rare bird. Would love to see that.