Kernel Crittenden
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Lighter bullets will have less recoil. That' why target wadcutter loads are both lighter (mass) and slower (velocity), than many common "high power" personal defense loads.
model 15 help please?
- Thread starter susieqz
- Start date
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
the problem with wadcutters is that they are so expensive that i won't be able to practice as much as i want
i learn best with 300 rounds/week, but i can't afford 300 wadcutters.
so, is it both mass n velocity contribute to recoil?
i can get armscor cheapest but they hurt, so i'll have to spend more anyway.
i learn best with 300 rounds/week, but i can't afford 300 wadcutters.
so, is it both mass n velocity contribute to recoil?
i can get armscor cheapest but they hurt, so i'll have to spend more anyway.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
Get a set of Pachmayr rubber grips ,the ones that cover the back of the frame and are very narrow .
There should not be any "hurt" then.
They look awful but work and don't cost much.
Get a set of Pachmayr rubber grips ,the ones that cover the back of the frame and are very narrow .
There should not be any "hurt" then.
They look awful but work and don't cost much.
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
groo, when a person is willing to wear high heels just for looks, she is not likely to put pachmayr rubber on her gun, just because of pain.
snowman
Member
Hello, Susie. I am new to this discussion, but I've read every post. A number of issues have been raised and discussed, and I'm not going to try to address them all here. But I'd like to assist you in some way if I can.
What has caught my attention the most is your seeming inability to use the open sights on the gun. You've emphasized this repeatedly and forcefully, but haven't explained why it is so. Could you try to walk us through the problem(s) you encounter when you try to use the sights? Is it a focus issue? Are you frustrated by the inevitable wobble when you try to keep a steady hold on the gun? Or is it something else?
Again, I would like to assist; I have no desire to make you uncomfortable. But I can't help but think that there is a satisfactory solution to your difficulty. The reason I say so is that, in all my years of shooting and listening to other shooters discuss sight issues, I've never encountered anyone who found it impossible to use them. I've heard older shooters discuss the focus problem which accompanies aging eyes, but they have always found a solution to that problem.
I'm not in any way calling your truthfulness into question. Obviously a problem exists; I would just like to understand it better to see if we might be able to help you overcome it. Might you consider trying to describe the issue to us? If not, I won't badger you about it. I just didn't think it would hurt to inquire.
Best wishes,
Andy
What has caught my attention the most is your seeming inability to use the open sights on the gun. You've emphasized this repeatedly and forcefully, but haven't explained why it is so. Could you try to walk us through the problem(s) you encounter when you try to use the sights? Is it a focus issue? Are you frustrated by the inevitable wobble when you try to keep a steady hold on the gun? Or is it something else?
Again, I would like to assist; I have no desire to make you uncomfortable. But I can't help but think that there is a satisfactory solution to your difficulty. The reason I say so is that, in all my years of shooting and listening to other shooters discuss sight issues, I've never encountered anyone who found it impossible to use them. I've heard older shooters discuss the focus problem which accompanies aging eyes, but they have always found a solution to that problem.
I'm not in any way calling your truthfulness into question. Obviously a problem exists; I would just like to understand it better to see if we might be able to help you overcome it. Might you consider trying to describe the issue to us? If not, I won't badger you about it. I just didn't think it would hurt to inquire.
Best wishes,
Andy
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
hiya, andy. i'd welcome any advice but i'm not sure where the problem lies.
it isn't the wobble. i get wobble with a red dot too, but i can shoot my 22/45 with fastfire, with wobble, but get ok groups at 25 yards:
1'' rested
2'' 2 hands
3'' 1 hand.
i couldn't do this without the dot n 7500 practice rounds..
if focus is the only other variable, it must be focus.
it isn't the wobble. i get wobble with a red dot too, but i can shoot my 22/45 with fastfire, with wobble, but get ok groups at 25 yards:
1'' rested
2'' 2 hands
3'' 1 hand.
i couldn't do this without the dot n 7500 practice rounds..
if focus is the only other variable, it must be focus.
The first thing to master in shooting is your grip. Some people like to strangle the gun, while the other extreme is to barely hold on to the firearm. The key is consistency. Unless shooting an uber recoil fire arm like a .44 mag or .500 S&W, my recommendation is to use a firm but comfortable grip. This is something you can practice when firing or dry firing.
The biggest thing to look for when dry firing is that the sights don't move when you pull the trigger. Concentrate on watching the front sight when the hammer falls. If the sights don't move, it means you have mastered pulling the trigger properly as well as the muscle control in your hand(s).
The next step is to go to your range, put a round in the gun and look the other way when you close the cylinder. If you can see the cartridge rims from the rear of the gun, then put already fired rounds in the empty cylinder holes so you still won't know when the gun is going to go bang. Pull the trigger, again concentrating on the sights not moving when the hammer falls. This works even better if you have a friend who can load the chambers in random order. I jokingly refer to this exercise as Russian Target Roulette. These exercises will help shrink your groupings immensely.
The biggest thing to look for when dry firing is that the sights don't move when you pull the trigger. Concentrate on watching the front sight when the hammer falls. If the sights don't move, it means you have mastered pulling the trigger properly as well as the muscle control in your hand(s).
The next step is to go to your range, put a round in the gun and look the other way when you close the cylinder. If you can see the cartridge rims from the rear of the gun, then put already fired rounds in the empty cylinder holes so you still won't know when the gun is going to go bang. Pull the trigger, again concentrating on the sights not moving when the hammer falls. This works even better if you have a friend who can load the chambers in random order. I jokingly refer to this exercise as Russian Target Roulette. These exercises will help shrink your groupings immensely.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
Hi Susie:
A few thoughts for you here:
* as cost is definitely a factor, perhaps you should shelve the Model 15 for a while and concentrate on your Ruger 22/45. I know .22LR ammo isn't as cheap, nor available as in the past, but it has to be cheaper than factory .38 Special.
* If you are going to practice with your .22 Ruger, you should not practice dry firing the Ruger as you will damage the piece in short order
* Also, as you know how to shoot well with a red dot, I'd remove the red dot from the piece and practice using the iron sights instead. The factory iron sights on the Ruger pistols are excellent, and should serve you well.
* One thing I always try to teach other shooters is to concentrate on the basics - sight alignment, finger (on the trigger) position; grip, breathing control, trigger press, follow-through. All firearms whether they are revolvers, semiautomatics, long gun or hand gun will have some commonality, and focusing on the basics will help minimize the "I cannot shoot a (fill in the blank) ______ well."
When I was teaching my son how to shoot, we entered in steel (plate) competitions at the local gun range. We used my box stock, Ruger Mk-II target pistol, and we always ended up in the top 5-7 shooters. During our first match, some lady all decked out in expensive competition gear and carrying a race gun walked by us and said "oh, what a cute little shiny gun". I told my son to ignore comments like that, and to concentrate on the basics. I believe we placed 4th and 5th in our heat, and the lady was tail end Charlie (last place). That made a real impression on my son, and I hope this will help you as well.
Finally, if you really must have the red dot sight mount installed on your Model 15, you should consider having it shipped to a competent gunsmith for drilling/tapping and installation. It won't be cheap, but at least you will have the job done, and properly as well. There are several good gunsmiths that can do this - Cylinder and Slide comes to mind, based on where you live, I'm sure other recommendations can be made.
Best of luck,
Dave
A few thoughts for you here:
* as cost is definitely a factor, perhaps you should shelve the Model 15 for a while and concentrate on your Ruger 22/45. I know .22LR ammo isn't as cheap, nor available as in the past, but it has to be cheaper than factory .38 Special.
* If you are going to practice with your .22 Ruger, you should not practice dry firing the Ruger as you will damage the piece in short order
* Also, as you know how to shoot well with a red dot, I'd remove the red dot from the piece and practice using the iron sights instead. The factory iron sights on the Ruger pistols are excellent, and should serve you well.
* One thing I always try to teach other shooters is to concentrate on the basics - sight alignment, finger (on the trigger) position; grip, breathing control, trigger press, follow-through. All firearms whether they are revolvers, semiautomatics, long gun or hand gun will have some commonality, and focusing on the basics will help minimize the "I cannot shoot a (fill in the blank) ______ well."
When I was teaching my son how to shoot, we entered in steel (plate) competitions at the local gun range. We used my box stock, Ruger Mk-II target pistol, and we always ended up in the top 5-7 shooters. During our first match, some lady all decked out in expensive competition gear and carrying a race gun walked by us and said "oh, what a cute little shiny gun". I told my son to ignore comments like that, and to concentrate on the basics. I believe we placed 4th and 5th in our heat, and the lady was tail end Charlie (last place). That made a real impression on my son, and I hope this will help you as well.
Finally, if you really must have the red dot sight mount installed on your Model 15, you should consider having it shipped to a competent gunsmith for drilling/tapping and installation. It won't be cheap, but at least you will have the job done, and properly as well. There are several good gunsmiths that can do this - Cylinder and Slide comes to mind, based on where you live, I'm sure other recommendations can be made.
Best of luck,
Dave
snowman
Member
Hi, Susie. Thanks for the response; that helps us. First, the questions I posed(wobble, focus) were merely 2 examples I threw out to you -there are a number of other possibilities(and I think one of these other possibilities will provide the answer).
Tom & Dave have offered excellent advice; especially, to practice dry firing (if using the 15) using the sights. But first I would like to make sure you understand: dry firing is pulling the trigger when there is no ammunition in the gun, so that all you hear is the sound of metal to metal contact when the hammer falls against the frame(forgive me if you are already familiar with it -I've learned from a good bit of experience NOT to assume people already know what is being talked about). A major benefit of dry firing is it eliminates the noise and recoil which commonly cause the shooter to "flinch"(close the eyes and jerk the gun when it fires, throwing the shot away from where it would have hit had the shooter not flinched). As Tom said, the idea is to learn to hold the gun still as the trigger is pulled or squeezed, so that the sights remain fixed on the target(see Tom's second paragraph again).
All of us are assuming here that you know how the sights are to be aligned: the front blade being centered in the notch of the rear sight, with the top of the blade level with the top of the rear sight on either side of the notch(I hope that made sense -let us know if it didn't).
I would suggest that you set up a target a short distance from your rain barrel(if that is the rest that you want to use). Use a chair or stool so that you can sit down and relax while dry firing, and practice dry firing single action until the sights don't move from the target as the trigger is squeezed(double action work can come later). When that happens, you can be sure that, had you been firing live ammunition, you would have gotten consistent groups. Practice a firm but comfortable grip as was suggested.
Just one question before I stop at this point: were you firing .22s with the gun you mentioned? The near-absence of recoil with a .22(and lesser noise also) often makes a huge difference when learning to shoot accurately. The likelihood of flinch is usually greatly reduced with .22s.
Let us know how you're coming. I'm sure others will help here also.
Regards,
Andy
Tom & Dave have offered excellent advice; especially, to practice dry firing (if using the 15) using the sights. But first I would like to make sure you understand: dry firing is pulling the trigger when there is no ammunition in the gun, so that all you hear is the sound of metal to metal contact when the hammer falls against the frame(forgive me if you are already familiar with it -I've learned from a good bit of experience NOT to assume people already know what is being talked about). A major benefit of dry firing is it eliminates the noise and recoil which commonly cause the shooter to "flinch"(close the eyes and jerk the gun when it fires, throwing the shot away from where it would have hit had the shooter not flinched). As Tom said, the idea is to learn to hold the gun still as the trigger is pulled or squeezed, so that the sights remain fixed on the target(see Tom's second paragraph again).
All of us are assuming here that you know how the sights are to be aligned: the front blade being centered in the notch of the rear sight, with the top of the blade level with the top of the rear sight on either side of the notch(I hope that made sense -let us know if it didn't).
I would suggest that you set up a target a short distance from your rain barrel(if that is the rest that you want to use). Use a chair or stool so that you can sit down and relax while dry firing, and practice dry firing single action until the sights don't move from the target as the trigger is squeezed(double action work can come later). When that happens, you can be sure that, had you been firing live ammunition, you would have gotten consistent groups. Practice a firm but comfortable grip as was suggested.
Just one question before I stop at this point: were you firing .22s with the gun you mentioned? The near-absence of recoil with a .22(and lesser noise also) often makes a huge difference when learning to shoot accurately. The likelihood of flinch is usually greatly reduced with .22s.
Let us know how you're coming. I'm sure others will help here also.
Regards,
Andy
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OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
i'll try dry firing.
i don't believe i flinch at all
i can't be completely sure as i have no shooting buddy, no range etc.
what i have is a backyard.
again, i have no help, so i could be wrong, but i think i have a constant grip.
in the past year, i have shot more than 7500 rounds bulls eye n 3000 rounds trying to learn point shooting n shooting using those glowing sights on my single 10.
except for the fact i can't hit anything, i would say i've cured those bad habits.
so, i probably have learned bad habits i'm unaware of.
i suspect it's something to do with my eyes.
or something else.
or the goddess hates me.
getting a dot is doable, but with shipping, ffl fees etc, it's gonna cost more than the gun.
not sure what to do.
i don't believe i flinch at all
i can't be completely sure as i have no shooting buddy, no range etc.
what i have is a backyard.
again, i have no help, so i could be wrong, but i think i have a constant grip.
in the past year, i have shot more than 7500 rounds bulls eye n 3000 rounds trying to learn point shooting n shooting using those glowing sights on my single 10.
except for the fact i can't hit anything, i would say i've cured those bad habits.
so, i probably have learned bad habits i'm unaware of.
i suspect it's something to do with my eyes.
or something else.
or the goddess hates me.
getting a dot is doable, but with shipping, ffl fees etc, it's gonna cost more than the gun.
not sure what to do.
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
i'm not sure how, but i'll try again.
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
folder clear.
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
you know, as i'm dry firing here, i'm not seeing any movement at all.
this thing has the best trigger i've ever seen n it's under 2 lbs.
very crisp break.
it sure sees like i should be doing small groups.
i painted the front sight red n the back white.
i was having trouble shooting at a black bull with black sights.
i'll do some serious work tomorrow.
i really do work as hard as i can at this.
it's important to me to feel competent.
this thing has the best trigger i've ever seen n it's under 2 lbs.
very crisp break.
it sure sees like i should be doing small groups.
i painted the front sight red n the back white.
i was having trouble shooting at a black bull with black sights.
i'll do some serious work tomorrow.
i really do work as hard as i can at this.
it's important to me to feel competent.
One thing I do that helps.When the groups get too big,I unload the gun and practice dry firing at the target until the flinches are gone,then I reload and shoot.
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
i hope you guys know i'm memorizing everything you say'
i'm taking it all as gospel.
i'm taking it all as gospel.
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OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
i need to thank you guys for the help.
since you think i can do it, i'm starting to think i can do it.
i'm gonna get out there after my coffee n work.
with the best trigger in the world, i should get something done.
since you think i can do it, i'm starting to think i can do it.
i'm gonna get out there after my coffee n work.
with the best trigger in the world, i should get something done.
Dry firing smooths the trigger and strengthens the muscles in your hand & arm. Simple dry firing is good, but also dry fire from "duelist position" with the gun arm extended. Thousands of dry fires (eventually) is not excessive.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
Hi Susie:
I learned a long time ago that if you want to improve quality you need to reduce your variables. I would urge you to concentrate on using one gun, with one particular brand and type of ammo, at one set distance. If you concentrate on shooting bullseye, everything else will be easier (or should be). Quality over quantity, and be patient.
You should keep a simple log of your shooting that includes distance to target, weather conditions, group sizes/results, etc. This will help you determine what works best for you. Also, as far as painting your sights, a lot of that depends on if you are shooting bullseye (place the target on top of your front sight - the old "pumpkin on a fence post") - in which black on black sights work best, or shooting combat - where your point of aim and point of impact should be the same place (in this instance, your front sight would be in the middle of the bullseye target).
I applaud your efforts at learning to shoot. If you lived in my area I would be happy to help you. Keep at it, and good luck.
Regards,
Dave
I learned a long time ago that if you want to improve quality you need to reduce your variables. I would urge you to concentrate on using one gun, with one particular brand and type of ammo, at one set distance. If you concentrate on shooting bullseye, everything else will be easier (or should be). Quality over quantity, and be patient.
You should keep a simple log of your shooting that includes distance to target, weather conditions, group sizes/results, etc. This will help you determine what works best for you. Also, as far as painting your sights, a lot of that depends on if you are shooting bullseye (place the target on top of your front sight - the old "pumpkin on a fence post") - in which black on black sights work best, or shooting combat - where your point of aim and point of impact should be the same place (in this instance, your front sight would be in the middle of the bullseye target).
I applaud your efforts at learning to shoot. If you lived in my area I would be happy to help you. Keep at it, and good luck.
Regards,
Dave
OP
susieqz
Absent Comrade
guys, i think there's something wrong with this gun'.
i have dry fired 3 rugers, often.
when the trigger is pulled, there's always some movement.
not this gun.
this trigger wouldn't be legal for competition.
the pull may be less than a pound.
add that to the weight of this gun n i can pull the trigger with zero movement of the barrel.
this should mean one hole groups at 25 yards.
i fixed up some shade at 17 yards today.
i shot 3'' groups.
something is very wrong but dry firing says it can't be.
i have dry fired 3 rugers, often.
when the trigger is pulled, there's always some movement.
not this gun.
this trigger wouldn't be legal for competition.
the pull may be less than a pound.
add that to the weight of this gun n i can pull the trigger with zero movement of the barrel.
this should mean one hole groups at 25 yards.
i fixed up some shade at 17 yards today.
i shot 3'' groups.
something is very wrong but dry firing says it can't be.
rog8732
US Veteran
In reading over your procedures trying for good accuracy from what is essential a "target / combat" revolver; I have reached the same conclusion you have, about; "something wrong is going on here !".
In spite of your obvious dislike of standard sights, I think you have put in enough effort with the mdl. 15, to be consistent in smaller than 17 yd. - 3 inch groups.
While everybody remotely familiar with the model 15 knows, and has stated here several times, what a fine target shooter it is, not one of us would be happy with 3 inch groups at that yardage with the amount of practice you have put in.
If I recall your previous post on firearm matters, you have a fair number of varied shooters with which you have mastered their intended purpose.
Yet, in spite of your obvious diligence to reach accuracy potential with your first S&W revolver, something seems amiss.
You have stated more than once the lack of a go-to source for a shooting companion, but I would hope there was a way to get your 15 in the hands of a proven target shooter of revolvers, (although from my recollections a person shooting accurately with one type of firearm is likely good with any and all).
Rimfire, centerfire, semi-auto, revolver, or rifle. Some better with one type or another, but still......
The opposite of letting someone else shoot your gun would be letting you try another's .38 revolver, which of course is rudimentary "trouble-shooting" of a problem . "If it ain't the gun; it must be me" type of decision.
Good luck with it, you certainly seem committed enough to "get it right" !
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