model 15 help please?

[gwalchmai]

guys, i think there's something wrong with this gun'.
i have dry fired 3 rugers, often.
when the trigger is pulled, there's always some movement.
not this gun.
this trigger wouldn't be legal for competition.
the pull may be less than a pound.
add that to the weight of this gun n i can pull the trigger with zero movement of the barrel.
this should mean one hole groups at 25 yards.
i fixed up some shade at 17 yards today.
i shot 3'' groups.
something is very wrong but dry firing says it can't be.

If the (I assume single action) trigger pull is less than one pound you probably have a push off condition that should be addressed by a good gunsmith. The best single action triggers are 2.5 to 4 pounds.

A one-hole group @ 25 yards would put you in the Olympics - it's unlikely.

 

[susieqz]

what's a push off condition?
actually, i always hoped for a super light trigger.
one thing for sure. the lighter the trigger, the more accurate i am.

except now.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

"Push Off" is when the hammer is cocked back fully, like you're going to shoot it in single action, and you push on the hammer -- and it falls. Don't go crazy with pushing, like using all your might, but with reasonable force, it should not. If you push and it does fall, that's a very unsafe condition.

 

[susieqz]

thank you.
i don't have push off.
what i have is the world's best trigger in a gun i can't shoot.
i want nothing to do with 2 1/2 lb triggers.
i got lots of those.

 

[lrrifleman]

Hi Susieqz,

I can appreciate the difficulty you are experiencing. I learned that with NRA Service Rifle competitions, a 6 o'clock hold for me in rapid fire just didn't work. I then started using a center of mass hold. By doing this, my groups tightened significantly. I now shoot all of my handguns center of mass.

If you are handy with hand tools, or can get someone to make it for you, I think that you could benefit from a small rest. Visualize an "L" made out of 2x3s. Have the base about 10" long, and the altitude about 6" tall. Cut a 1-2" deep "V" in the top of the altitude, and line the inside of the "V" with either some scrap carpet, or scrap Rubbermaid style mat. With this contraption, rest the barrel of your revolver ahead of extractor rod lug, and fire a cylinder full of wadcutters at your target. This should give you a good idea of your revolver's accuracy potential. With this approach, you should see more acceptable accuracy.

If you can see your way into a reloading set up, this should benefit you immensely. Hornady 148gr swaged wadcutters run about $25 for 250 slugs. A pound of WW231 should go about $26 a pound, and produce about 2300 cartridges. Excluding the cost of your press, dies, scale, and tumbler, you should be able to produce a box of 50 rounds for about $6.54 a box.

 

[susieqz]

ed, one rests the actual barrel on a rest?
i never tried that but if that;s the way to do it, i shall.

 

[lrrifleman]

Suzie, resting the barrel on a surface is usually frowned upon, but short of a Ransom rest, it is the only way to really judge the accuracy of a handgun when you need to isolate movement.

I would suggest that you try to test the accuracy at about 50 feet.

 

[gwalchmai]

thank you.
i don't have push off.
what i have is the world's best trigger in a gun i can't shoot.
i want nothing to do with 2 1/2 lb triggers.
i got lots of those.

Are you measuring these trigger pulls with a gauge or are these subjective estimates? 2.5 pounds is very light. 4 - 6 pounds is more likely in an untuned single action trigger.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Are you measuring these trigger pulls with a gauge or are these subjective estimates? 2.5 pounds is very light. 4 - 6 pounds is more likely in an untuned single action trigger.

You are absolutely correct. One of the things I like to do when teaching a novice shooter how to shoot handguns is to provide a demonstration of the strength needed to trip a trigger in both single and double action modes. I will put a quart jug of milk on top of a table and ask the shooter to make a hook out of their index finger on their shooting hand, and lift the milk jug off of the table top. I will then switch the quart milk jug out with a gallon milk jug and ask them to do the same thing. I then tell them that they have just demonstrated they have sufficient hand strength to fire most handguns in both single (quart milk jug, which weighs about 2 lbs.) and double (the gallon milk jug, which weighs about 8 lbs.) action modes.

You should see the looks on the shooters faces at that point. I've had many shooters tell me that they were told by others that they were too frail or weak to shoot a revolver, and that they should use a (fill in the blank) shotgun/derringer/single action revolver, etc. It's a simple little demonstration, but it seems to give the shooter confidence.

Regards,

Dave

 

[susieqz]

i'm basing trigger pull on what i've been told.
i was told a 22/45 has a 4 lb pull which i didn't like.
i was told that changing the sear would result in a 2 lb pull, which i did. this made the gun more fun.
the m15 trigger is much lighter than that.

 

[gwalchmai]

i'm basing trigger pull on what i've been told.
i was told a 22/45 has a 4 lb pull which i didn't like.
i was told that changing the sear would result in a 2 lb pull, which i did. this made the gun more fun.
the m15 trigger is much lighter than that.

Oh, OK....

 

[susieqz]

well, i did what irr said
i built a barrel rest
got things set up so that was the only part of the gun touching anything.my right wrist was on padding because the gun is heavy.

i located at 10 yards because i figured that if the gun didn't like the ammo it wouldn't matter at 10 yards.
plus, my problems with irons wouldn;t be a big deal.
first shot started a bedsheet on fire.
shot magtech 148 gr wadcutter---1 3/4'' group.then
some freedom arms reman 125 gr hollow point, because i had them with me.
got 1 3/4'' again, so i was right about ammo not mattering at 10 yards,
i can cut this in half, shooting wolf in my 22/45 from 25 yards.
so, i need to know if this really is an accurate test.
because if it is, either this is no target gun, or i just can't shoot centerfire revolvers.
by the way, there is no flinch
i'm used to shooting this gun.
that's what the 6 round/day plus tons on sundays does.

 

[gwalchmai]

At 10 yards from a bench I would expect all the holes to touch.

 

[susieqz]

yeah, me too.

 

[lrrifleman]

Suzie,

This is where a picture of your target would be helpful. Does your group look like a shotgun pattern or do some bullet holes touch? If some bullet holes touch, how many? If 1 or 2 fliers exist, that would suggest that 1 or 2 charge holes are off. If only 1 or 2 touch, that would suggest that your barrel has a build up of lead. The idea behind 148gr hollow base wadcutters is that the skirt of the bullet expands to catch the rifling, but this doesn't happen with cast bevel based wadcutters.

What does the rifling in your barrel look like? Is it distinct grooves, or does the barrel look even with the suggestion of lands and grooves?

If none (or only 2) touch, that suggests a lead build up, which would be removed with the aid of a Lewis Lead Remover, or if you can find it, a product called either RB17 or RB44 (I forget, consequence of a concussion induced memory loss). I have not seen the RB product in ages. It is supposed to be liquified horse manure, but it worked extremely well.

If I remember correctly, you purchased your Combat Masterpiece used, so you don't know how well it was cared for.

 

[susieqz]

well, it's dark out n high wind probably blew the target away, but i think just 1 or 2 touched.
i just did a quick clean n it looks ok.
if lead is a problem i'll just use jacketed ammo from now on.
i'm not in the mood to feed this thing expensive ammo anymore.
i do have jb bore polish which is abrasive n kroil cleaner.
i'll zap it good tomorrow.
i remain in love with this trigger.
if i ditch the gun, i'll get a m14 n switch springs if i can.

after this morn's session, i'm kinda down.
this was some prison guard's gun. who knows what he did to it.

 

[lrrifleman]

Suzie,

If the barrel is leaded up, you will not see any benefit from jacketed bullets until the lead is removed. Normally, shooting lead bullets is not an issue, unless the firearm is not cleaned well after shooting it. Please remember that jacketed bullets will induce barrel wear over time.

The fact that close to half of your shots touched strongly suggests that leading of the barrel may be your problem, and shouldn't scare you from shooting lead bullets.

After a good cleaning, you should be able to put all 6 shots within a half dollar, without any peaking out at you.

 

[susieqz]

i soaked the barrel overnight.
gonna scrub it good today.
i ish someone would tell me how often it needs cleaning.
my rimfires seldom get cleaned.
i get better groups with a dirty barrel.
is every 100 rounds enow?

 

[susieqz]

well. i cleaned n polished the bore as best i could.
then i did it again.
i don't think i can do this often without hurting the barrel.
those groves look good, tho very little twist.
i can now see barrel damage. there are some scratches n rough spots in there.
not pitting, i've seen that before, just some scratches n rough spots.
not sure if they affect accuracy.

this thing about special products to remove lead?
people used lead bullets forever. what did they use?
i have 1,874, 903 different cleaning products on my shelves. i don't have room for more.
i'm not sure any work anyway. i've got everything from hoppes to kroil. but i notice automatic transmission fluid works just as well.

 

[arjay]

Pick up some copper (make sure it isn't plated steel) chore boy at the grocery or Walmart and wrap a few strands around a bore brush.Run it back and forth through the bore several times and it will shave the lead right out of there.Works better than anything I've tried and lead is all I ever shoot in handguns