Model 15 in Vietnam

JP@AK

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On page 37 of the Spring 2018 Journal, there is a photo of USAF Ace Robin Olds standing on the ladder by his F-4 Phantom II at Ubon. He is carrying a 4" Combat Masterpiece in his regulation holster.

I was glad to see this picture for lots of reasons - not least that Col. Olds was a huge inspiration to many of us who served over there. He was gone from Thailand by the time I arrived on my first trip, but his legend was with us all the time.

But I also appreciated having photographic evidence of something that has bothered me for a while, something I know by personal experience but lacked photo proof. This is the often stated, but erroneous, assertion that USAF pilots in the Vietnam Theater of Operations carried 2" Model 15s (generally if not exclusively). It simply isn't true. I saw far more 4" guns than 2" examples in my two years over there. I never once so much as held a 2" Combat Masterpiece while in the theater.

This isn't a rant. It is just intended to be clarification.

Also, my thanks to Kevin Williams and John Brunner for the excellent Journal article. Well done.

For those of you reading this who are not SWCA Members, let me urge you to join. Among other benefits, you are missing a great publication by not becoming members and receiving the Journal. Pony up - you won't be disappointed!
 
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In our survival vests, we carried a 4" model 15 with 6 in the cylinder, and six on each shoulder strap of the vest for a total of 18 rounds. didn't take too long to "acquire" a 1911 with several magazines in the thigh pockets. 18 rounds of FMJ .38 special didn't seem like enough if you had to confront the bad guys.

Det. 1, 56th ACW Udorn Thailand, '69
 
I remember when I was about 8 or 9 years old my uncle (then a USAF Major) was visiting his parents on leave just prior to being sent to Okinawa/Viet Nam. I went with him to the local hardware store where he bought a blue, four inch, Model 15 that they happened to have in stock. I can't remember what he flew, some type of fighter/bomber, but he wanted it to carry in the plane just in case. He made it and retired with 33 years as a full colonel.
 
On page 37 of the Spring 2018 Journal, there is a photo of USAF Ace Robin Olds standing on the ladder by his F-4 Phantom II at Ubon. He is carrying a 4" Combat Masterpiece in his regulation holster.

I was glad to see this picture for lots of reasons - not least that Col. Olds was a huge inspiration to many of us who served over there. He was gone from Thailand by the time I arrived on my first trip, but his legend was with us all the time.

But I also appreciated having photographic evidence of something that has bothered me for a while, something I know by personal experience but lacked photo proof. This is the often stated, but erroneous, assertion that USAF pilots in the Vietnam Theater of Operations carried 2" Model 15s (generally if not exclusively). It simply isn't true. I saw far more 4" guns than 2" examples in my two years over there. I never once so much as held a 2" Combat Masterpiece while in the theater.

This isn't a rant. It is just intended to be clarification.

Also, my thanks to Kevin Williams and John Brunner for the excellent Journal article. Well done.

For those of you reading this who are not SWCA Members, let me urge you to join. Among other benefits, you are missing a great publication by not becoming members and receiving the Journal. Pony up - you won't be disappointed!

I enjoyed that article as well. I got to see Col Olds pin on his star and spent a lovely evening with him at the O Club at Mt Home AFB one night in 1969. If the club is still there I bet his footprint is still in the ceiling.

I talked to some F-100 pilots in our wing in Vietnam and they got issued their model 15's when they picked up their flight gear and turned them in when they dropped off their flight gear before and after every mission. The alert crews had them on them at the alert facility.
 
I had a camp 7 miles East of Quang Tri RVN. It was a CIA outpost. While I carried a .45 1911, the CIA guys carried S&W Model 29s 4" barrel. They looked like models out of a Cabelas catalogue!!! I always asked them where they expected to find either .44 Special or 44 magnum ammo is they were running low!!! LOL
 
There were a lot of 15s in 4" being passed around Army units
that had been AF property. They were usually passed on when
current owner was set to DEROS. Also were a few Brn HPs that
had been liberated from Aussies. Our supply didn't have 38sp
ammo but we were always able to bum off the AF. I saw a lot of
off the wall handguns from Ruger 22 autos to a Portugese Luger
that was in a dink arms cache. We were only issued 1911s.
 
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There were a lot of 15s in 4" being passed around Army units
that had been AF property. They were usually passed on when
current owner was set to DEROS. Also were a few Brn HPs that
had been liberated from Aussies. Our supply didn't have 38sp
ammo but we were always able to bum off the AF. I saw a lot of
off the wall handguns from Ruger 22 autos to a Portugese Luger
that was in a dink arms cache. We were only issued 1911s.

My Dad was assigned to the US Embassy from the fall of 1967 until the fall of 1968, he worked for MAC V, coordinating airlift in country.. He had 75 hrs, in country in the MC-130E, Combat Talon 1, though at that time they were referred to as "Rivet Yard", a mission initially given to the poor old C-123, which my Dad also had more hours in than he cared to.

any way, he carried a 2" Colt Cobra, and an M2 Carbine,, he told the story a few times of some of his MACV operators offering him a couple of "clean" FN High Power's from a fresh case they were carrying in the back of the airplane...

although highly tempted, my Dad declined their very gracious offer, he later purchased a Browning BDM, which he truly enjoyed carrying and dispatching "rats" out of the cattle bunks on the farm.. He also had me buy a "Colt Cobra" for him, which he also enjoyed but never shot, but I couldn't resist putting a cylinder full through prior to turning that over to him..
 
I saw quite a few B-52 pilots carrying 2" S&W Combat Masterpiece revolvers in Thailand 1974-1975.

Heh! Heh!, I'll assume you might know where "HighSmith Hospital is, anyway, I was born during my Dad's time at Pope, at the time he was flying lots of Army Paratroops in the "Dollar Nineteen", he transitioned to the C-130A when we moved to Naha AB, Japan.
 
On page 37 of the Spring 2018 Journal, there is a photo of USAF Ace Robin Olds standing on the ladder by his F-4 Phantom II at Ubon. He is carrying a 4" Combat Masterpiece in his regulation holster.

I was glad to see this picture for lots of reasons - not least that Col. Olds was a huge inspiration to many of us who served over there. He was gone from Thailand by the time I arrived on my first trip, but his legend was with us all the time.

But I also appreciated having photographic evidence of something that has bothered me for a while, something I know by personal experience but lacked photo proof. This is the often stated, but erroneous, assertion that USAF pilots in the Vietnam Theater of Operations carried 2" Model 15s (generally if not exclusively). It simply isn't true. I saw far more 4" guns than 2" examples in my two years over there. I never once so much as held a 2" Combat Masterpiece while in the theater.


I know for a fact that Col. Olds wore a Model 15 in the standard USAF hip holster. I pulled security inside and outside at the TOC (command post) at Ubon in 66-67, and saw him and all the other pilots coming and going suited up for missions, constantly. It was an "interesting" place to be, obviously. I kept a camera close to hand most of the time and shot up yards of 35 mm b&w during my tour. That included many of the pilots. I have what I consider a great photo of Col. Olds headed out, mustache, Model 15, and all. He looked like he was going hunting--which he was. I have the photo, autographed by him and inscribed to me. Unfortunately I'm no good at posting photos.

The 4" Model 15 was standard issue for all pilots in the 8TFW. I never saw a 2" one there. I do remember a couple of pilots with personally owned weapons; one 1911 and one Browning High Power.
 
I saw a pic somewhere of a USAF holster of the pivoting sort that had two retention straps in place of the usual one. I suspect this was for aircrew, to help prevent loss of the gun if bailing out/ejecting.

I talked with fellow AP's who were stationed at Fairchild AFB, WA who had had to carry .38 snubs. Don't know if they were M-56's. They said it was much easier to qualify with the four-inch barrels we usually had.

Some AF personnel used Navy-supplied Victory Model .38's. I carried one a lot at Lowry AFB, CO as we lacked enough M-15's. Those had priority for SAC and Vietnam duty. My boss, a lieutenant, carried his own K-38/M-14. Another officer had a Colt snub .38 with a hammer shroud. This guy was a (bleep!) and I never asked him about the Colt. I just avoided him when I could.

I've seen a photo of an AF medic who wore a Victory Model .38 and had an M-16 rifle. He was standing by a helicopter. This man received a posthumous AF Cross for valor in battle, where he fought valiantly and treated wounded Army troops under heavy fire, although wounded, himself. He was, alas, killed in that fight.

Pilots had a lot of leeway. I've read about many who carried personal arms. Gun author Gene Gangarossa said he had a P-38 on a Navy helicopter, and novelist Stephen Coonts equipped his fictional hero with a S&W M-19 .357. I suspect that Coonts carried that gun as an Intruder pilot. His books were based on his experience as an Intruder pilot and he saw combat in Vietnam. BTW, he bitterly protested the lack of a gun/guns on the A-6 Intruder. The F-4 Phantom also lacked a gun at first. Complaints from combat pilots finally got a 20 mm Vulcan installed on the F-4. This was very useful in dogfights where a MiG was too close for missile engagement. I certainly hope the F-22 and F-35 have guns. The USAF has too many tech nuts who don't understand air battle. They even try to get rid of the A-10, one of the best planes for its use ever made! My son, who was Army in Iraq, said A-10's saved his bacon several times when engaging enemy ground troops.

I understand that pilots now must carry the issue pistol. But some units that didn't like the Beretta M-9 have used unit funds to buy Glock M-19's. Those qualify as the issued pistols. And unit funds can also purchase Fallkniven S-1 knives. These have a National Stock Number for ordering for government use.
I believe that aircrews can still carry privately owned knives. I read about some Navy pilot who ordered Randall Model 5 knives with five-inch blades and Micarta handles, to re-sell to fellow pilots. That knife fit the sheath on their survival vests. The Fallkniven S-1 also fits. The blade shape is very like the Randall Model 5.

During the Viet war, gun magazines often got requests from pilots wanting info about pistols.Jeff Cooper fielded such requests at Guns & Ammo. He usually suggested Colt Government Model .45's, as one would suspect, given his tastes. The S&W M-19 was also a popular choice. It'd fire .38 Special ammo, so that was available. I don't know which Magnum ammo the pilots carried, as most would violate the Hague Accords about expanding bullets.
 
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Hollywood has given the public the perception that special weapons like snipers rifles, silencers and StarLite scopes were
general issue. That wasn't the case, there was always a few that
leaked out, but only the specialty guys were issued these.

The Army cracked down on unauthorized weapons mostly on
the account of support troops. Everyone was issued a M-16
and what happened was guys would get a handgun and not be
carrying their M16. Then since there was no Frontlines anything
could happen at anytime. You had a bunch of guys with pistols
which are toys against automatic rifle fire. The outfits That I
were in didn't care what extra weapons you had, but you better
be carrying issue weapon with the prescribed amount of Ammo.
When in the rear we did have to turn all weapons over to the
Supply Sargent. Issue & extras but when we went back into
the field they were returned to us. This was because of the
racial trouble and fraggings that were going on at the time.
 
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