Model 1911 Carry

I carry the modern version of the 1911, the (1935) Browning High Power in 40 S&W in Condition 1 either open carry or concealed, although recently I more often carry a Shield 45. Browning designed both pistols to be carried that way.

Added: The only problem I had with the High Power in Condition 1 was occasionally some apostle would deliver me an epistle, saying, "...did you know that gun is cocked?"
 
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Found it, the article is by Jan Libourel. His statement is as follows:

"Thus, if I see a man packing a customized Colt auto cocked and locked, I realize that I may be in the presence of a very knowledgeable and fine pistol shot. On the other, there is also an excellent chance that our hero is a hot-air artist, who is not vey competent with his over-accessorized toy or any other handgun, for that matter."

This is from a 1989 Guns & Ammo Annual. It is a very good article to say the least.

Have been training people to defend themselves with handguns since 1991. I can't remember any who took up the 1911 as a "hot-air artist"...all were very very dedicated to keeping themselves alive.

One of the reasons was probably to the hot-air artist Condition I was just too dangerous looking...

Bob
 
I worked with quite a few firearms gamesmen in policing over the years. My experience was pretty much negative - there was lots of trash talking, often some fine shooting, but when push occasionally came to shove, gamesmen mostly failed to perform.

The most egregious example was a police countersniper who spent his own money to go to Gunsite, cherried up his rifle, shot 50-100 rounds weekly. The one time he should have fired to save a brother officer from a shotgun blast to the face, he couldn't decide, and a line officer on the inner perimeter had to fire - it was such a close thing in how much time was left to act that most of the inner perimeter thought the perp had fired.

Boys and their toys....
 
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I worked with quite a few firearms gamesmen in policing over the years. My experience was pretty much negative - there was lots of trash talking, often some fine shooting, but when push occasionally came to shove, gamesmen mostly failed to perform.

The most egregious example was a police countersniper who spent his own money to go to Gunsite, cherried up his rifle, shot 50-100 rounds weekly. The one time he should have fired to save a brother officer from a shotgun blast to the face, he couldn't decide, and a line officer on the inner perimeter had to fire - it was such a close thing in how much time was left to act that nost of the inner perimeter thought the perp had fired.

Boys and their toys....

When I was stationed in Ca., I was assigned to Naval Weapons Station Seal Beach. We had three ranges on base and had 22 Federal and Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies that used our ranges.

Got to shoot with some very good shooters and some Wannabes! The best was an officer for a local PD always and I mean always shot clean on his target (300 out of 300). We had a match on base that had 60 different teams competing. For the combat portion were used the officers PD Combat Course. Everyone figures he would win------He did not underpressure he only shot a 287 out of 300, Yours truly shot 298 out of 300 and was smoked. I wanted to clean the course. Found out later the Range Master for that PD jinxed me. He said it looks the Gunny is going to get his 300, then I shot a three the next shot and then went back to fives. Still keep the target to keep me humble as another friend says!
 
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Have been training people to defend themselves with handguns since 1991. I can't remember any who took up the 1911 as a "hot-air artist"...all were very very dedicated to keeping themselves alive.

One of the reasons was probably to the hot-air artist Condition I was just too dangerous looking...

Bob

Bob, you either lucky or have been living a sheltered life. I was teaching firearms marksmanship since the early 70's and Combat Handgun Course since 1988 (USMC School set up by Jeff Cooper & friends).

I have run into more than my share of Wannabe's on the range and on the street. Most are lucky that they do not shoot themselves getting the gun out of the holster. Have seen a couple shoot themselves accidently on the range.

Folks that come to classes are generally disciplined folks who pay attention and want to learn. A few need some "extra" instruction for various reasons.

Watch out for the BillyBob's and DoDa's as they can be dangerous. Our ranges here have banned several for their lack of judgement, lack of safety and dangerous handling of firearms.
 
The firing pin stop was incorporated into the 1911 design long after the Army adopted it and none of the military 1911s had them. Series 70 guns are like the military version internally and do not have it. The firing pin stop is in the series 80 guns. Or did I miss something significant, somewhere?

What you're referring to is the "firing pin safety" incorporated into the Colt Series 80 guns.
The "firing pin stop" is the small plate in the back of the slide that holds the firing pin, its spring and the extractor in place. ;)
 
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Yes, for over 30 years now. If someone is not comfortable carrying a 1911 in condition 1 they should choose another type of gun, IMO.
THIS! I would take a condition 1 1911 in the cheapest Yaqui holster ever made over a Glock 19 in a level 3 retention holster or it's kin. I'm just not comfortable with a half-cocked, striker fired, no safety handgun. Even though I carried a S&W M&P every day at work for the last 10 years of so.
 
I always carry my 1911's cocked and locked.

I also have the grip safety disabled on my 1911's: a proper high grip can engage the grip safety if it's not disabled.

Let me preface my question with this, I am not 1911 savvy.

The grip safety, that is the part in the grip frame? When it is untouched, the pistol can not fire? So, pinning it, (in the gripped position?), makes it able to be fired. So, how does a high grip cause the grip safety not to work?

Kevin
 
You are correct Kevin. I have never had a problem with a grip safety not working, but Clearly others have. Some newer grip safeties are made to mitigate the potential. On the gun below you can see how this is done on an SR1911.

 
In my experience that's NOT how the US Army taught its personnel to carry the 1911 so I'm not so sure it was literally "meant" to be carried that way. Remember the book "Unsafe At Any Speed"? You do if you're old enough. That ruined the Chevrolet Corvair. I have always felt that way about a 1911 in Condition 1. It's not safe and I don't care what anyone says about it. YMMV and obviously does in so many cases. Everyone has choices donchano!!! :rolleyes:

Given that the 1907 Colt pistol used in the service pistol trials didn't have a thumb safety, it's pretty clear the US Army didn't intend it to be carried cocked and locked. Why would they? They were not yet even sold on the concept of a semi auto pistol and were using revolvers issued to units as controls preceding and following the trials.

The major difference between the 1905 Colt and the 1907 Colt was the addition of a grip safety and John Browning was clearly moving in a direction of making it safer to carry and or reholster with a loaded chamber.

Interestingly, the 1907 Savage was a striker fired pistol with a thumb safety and the third finalist in the trials, a Luger developed for .45 ACP also had a thumb safety.

Regardless of how the US Army decided to use it, John Browning designed the 1911 to incorporate both the grip safety for the 1907 and a thumb safety and clearly intended it to be capable of being safely carried cocked and locked.

I've concealed carried for 36 years and the majority of that time I've carried a 1911 or a Hi Power in condition 1.

(As an analogy, my wife and I are also cave divers, I've been a diver since 1985, a technical wreck diver since 1995, and a cave diver since 2007. Scubapro Jet Fins are the 1911 of the diving world and I started using Jet in 1985. Like my 1911s, I've "replaced" my Jet Fins at least a dozen times but keep coming back to them because they just do the job extremely well.)

"Safety" wise, can count maybe a dozen or so times over that 36 years when I've discovered the safety was "off" in the holster. That only occurred with 1911's that had a totally unnecessary (IMHO) ambidextrous safety lever. There's no free lunch and in OWB or IWB carry, and where you might be down on the ground, an ambidextrous safety will get clicked off on occasion. You have to balance that against the actual need for an ambidextrous safety. So far it's about 12 to 0 for me personally.

Now…that said, the thumb safety ending up in the off position in the holster does not present a safety issue. The trigger is still fully protected, provided a proper holster is used, and the grip safety is still disengaged. The gun isn't going to fire itself just because the safety is off.

A 1911 with the thumb safety off with a loaded chamber (Condition 0) is analogous to the 1907 trials pistol. There's no danger in the holster, but an overly enthusiastic and poorly trained shooter can end up putting his or her finger inside the trigger guard and pull the trigger somewhere prior to the muzzle being pointed down range.

Adding the thumb safety (Condition 1) doesn't completely solve this problem as the same kind of overly enthusiastic and poorly trained shooter can also move the thumb safety to "fire" during the draw. These are the folks who end up putting a round in the dirt a couple feet in front of them during a tactical match.

But in 36 years and literally hundreds of thousands of rounds, I've never done that or had an ND with a 1911 shooting and carrying one in condition 1.

So…with proper training a 1911 can clearly be safely carried in Condition 1 - because JMB designed it to have that capability.

What makes people nervous with the 1911, Hi Power, CZ-75 etc, carried in condition 1 is the visibly cocked hammer. Yet the same observers and shooters think nothing of the Glock and other striker fired pistols carried on a loaded chamber, even though it is effectively cocked, but with no manual safety or other safety system not directly tied to the trigger.

Condition one is not how the Army taught me back in 1966. However lots of folks do it and are comfortable with it. A 1911 in condition one seems to me to be a lot safer than a loaded Glock.
I am personally not comfortable with it. So I don't carry a 1911, I carry a 645.
At my age I have decided that the extra time it takes to get into action is probably a good thing for my decision making process.
How long does it take to cock a 1911?
But, as I said at the top, lots of smart people do it safely. If you have to ask questions about it, maybe you should not.

As noted above Glocks are carried on a loaded chamber with no manual safety other than what's tied to the trigger, and people don't see that as a threat, even though the trigger pull is a lot shorter and lighter than virtually any DA pistol or revolver.

And the Glock has a much higher incidence of NDs and shooters shooting themselves, especially in IWB carry.

I am however not an advocate of carrying a 1911 hammer down on a loaded chamber (Condition 2). Under extreme stress you tend to lose fine motor control and cocking the hammer on a 1911 can be an elusive skill.

You are better off carrying it in Condition 3 with the hammer down and the safety off on an empty chamber. You can rack the slide to load and cock the pistol using only gross motor movements and it's not really any slower than cocking the hammer.

From what I have read, the 1911 was made to be carried in Condition III, hammer down, empty chamber, by the military. It was only to be put into Condition I when contact was "imminent" or after contact before it was safe to clear the gun.

One of the modifications made before it was adopted by the Army, who still had a lot of horse cavalry, was the firing pin stop. Originally it was square bottomed...the Army asked if the slide could be made easier to cycle for the horse back riders and that led to the adoption of the radiused FPS and I believe a lower weight mainspring...which is probably why the 1911 in stock form kicks more than is often modified to...

On a side note...my bet is that the Glock was made to be carried the same way. Gaston Glock was not a gun person...he was an inventor trying to get a military contact. Have not been able to confirm this, but my guess is that the Austrian military carries their handguns in Condition III just like the Israelies do so no consideration was given to the gun being carried continuously with a round in the chamber...

I don't know about the Austrians, but the Israelis started carrying their service pistols in Condition 3 at least in part because they had a rather random collection of pistols from various surplus, captured and new sources. They bought Hi Powers and could have opted to carry them in condition 1, but they also needed to balance that against training requirements where condition 3 works with any semi auto pistol.

They also focus heavily on training and an Israeli soldier can employ a pistol in condition 3 very rapidly.

Glock found itself in a position to market the pistol to police departments looking to transition from DA revolvers to semi a auto pistols and Glock marketed the concept of a single trigger pull and the ease of training police officers to shoot a pistol that functioned like a DAO revolver, with no manual safety and a single trigger pull.

The fact that pull was a lot shorter, a lot lighter, and a lot less safe were facts that were both conveniently buried, and to a large extent has been mitigated over time with holster design. When I was an LEO in the mid to late 1980s, we had duty holsters that were work close to the waist. Now, you'll see duty holsters with a spacer between belt and holster creating a significant distance between the waist and the gun.

That creates a few distinct downsides, but it does keep a striker fired pistol out away from objects like clothing and jacket draw string fobs that could otherwise intrude into the trigger guard and cause the pistol to fire when it's being re holstered. And *when* that happens anyway, that space between the holster and the leg reduces the potential for the officer to shoot him or herself in the leg.
 
Let me preface my question with this, I am not 1911 savvy.

The grip safety, that is the part in the grip frame? When it is untouched, the pistol can not fire? So, pinning it, (in the gripped position?), makes it able to be fired. So, how does a high grip cause the grip safety not to work?

Kevin
A properly functioning grip safety will prevent the trigger from moving rearward enough to release the sear and fire the 1911.

It is possible to grip a standard 1911 high enough that the web of the hand pushes up on the grip safety's tang and the ball of the thumb does not provide enough force to push the grip safety in and allow the 1911 to fire. Today, many 1911's come with a grip safety that has a bump or bulge near the bottom of the safety. This bump will allow the hand to be high up on the safety, but the ball of the thumb will be in firm contact with that bump, which will push in the safety and allow the 1911 to fire. Before someone came up with the idea for the bump, pinning the grip safety so as to deactivate it was somewhat popular.


By the way, did you know that the 1911 has three safeties? Yes, they all do! First is the thumb safety. The second safety is the grip safety. The third safety is the trigger. No pressure should be applied to the trigger and the finger is to be off of the trigger until ready to fire. If you have a holster that applies pressure to the trigger, get another holster and always, always, always keep you finger out of the trigger guard unless you are firing the pistol.
 
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IIRC; the Army wanted the grip safety added to the final design and Mr. Browning objected, but complied.

Regards,

Tam 3
 
Let me preface my question with this, I am not 1911 savvy.

The grip safety, that is the part in the grip frame? When it is untouched, the pistol can not fire? So, pinning it, (in the gripped position?), makes it able to be fired. So, how does a high grip cause the grip safety not to work?

Kevin

Kevin,

Get with Jebus, he has a real nice M1911 set up to shoot with.

AJ
 
Let me preface my question with this, I am not 1911 savvy.

The grip safety, that is the part in the grip frame? When it is untouched, the pistol can not fire? So, pinning it, (in the gripped position?), makes it able to be fired. So, how does a high grip cause the grip safety not to work?

Kevin

The "high grip" is a relatively new concept relative to the 1911, and it's intended to get the hand as high as possible on the pistol to reduce muzzle flip, and it makes sense on some DA/SA pistols where the bore is much higher over the grip than with most SA designs.

In other words, the benefit of the high grip on a 1911 is minimal, and comes with some downsides in the form of the left thumb riding on the slide stop and potentially preventing it from letting the magazine lock the slide open after the last round, and both thumbs dragging against the slide.

But the big problem is the web of the hand between thumb and forefinger pushing up on the now common place beaver tail on the grip safety, and pressing up on it more than the meaty part of the base of the thumb presses in on the grip safety.

Since the grip safety is hinged between those two points, the combination of the high grip and the larger and longer beaver tail on the grip safety makes it less likely the grip safety will be sufficiently depressed into the grip frame to de activate the grip safety.

The irony here is that the now common large and long beaver tail is more or less regarded as necessary because the (largely useless) high grip on a 1911 causes many shooters to get bit by the hammer when skin on the web of the hand ends up over the back of the traditional grip safety.

FullSizeRender_8eG9HxHevNf3oA4s2kp3a9.jpg


FullSizeRender_t52ZxyU3KCDw1kxnsZuhzp.jpg


Note the wear mark still visible on the side of the grip safety, in front of the meaty part of the base of the thumb indicating it is not fully depressed. This is with a regular 1911 without the extended beaver tail. You have to work really hard to get this type of standard grip safety not to disengage properly, but it's remotely possible.

The bigger issue was that hammer bite hurts, so high grip shooters started adding extended beaver tails. I first did that in the late 1980s when I was young and dumb, thought the high grip mattered and Wilson Combat started selling a more or less drop in beaver tail grip safety.

Unfortunately, an extended beaver tail makes it a lot more likely for the grip safety to fail to disengage as it provides a lot more area and more leverage for the web of the hand to lift the beaver tail when using a high grip. You know longer had to work hard to get it to fail to disengage with a high grip.

So to recap, the high grip created the problem of hammer bite on the 1911, so the beaver tail was developed, which even further reduced the reliability of the hand deactivating the grip safety, when a high grip was used.

Back in the day, I had the frame and grip safety drilled for a cross pin to hold the grip safety in the depressed position. It no longer had a functional grip safety, but the Hi Power got on fine without it so the 1911 could too. And it did, but I just shot them, I didn't make them.

Then, and even more now, on new guns where a manufacturer risks a law suit by removing a safety system the solutions are to either:
- add a projection at the base of the grip safety, as is the case with the Ruger on the left; or
- make the entire grip safety thicker to ensure positive contact with the hand, as is the case with the Kimber on the right.

Compared to the traditional grip safety on the Colt, both of these approaches make it easier for the reduced hand pressure in that area of the grip to still deactivate the safety.

FullSizeRender_b5orEfCFnGZiKNrBsREjr7.jpg


It's also worth noting that all three of these pistols also have the 1911 style flat mainspring housing, rather than the 1911A1/Colt Mk IV style arched mainspring housing. The arched and semi arched mainspring housings improve the point-ability of the 1911 for some shooters, but it also makes it easier for the hand to fail to depress the grip safety as it moves the base of the hand farther away from the grip frame. Again when combined with using a high grip on the 1911 where there is more pressure on the web of the hand, the added pressure at the base leaves even less pressure in the middle where the grip safety lives.

Thus almost all modern 1911s have:
- the original flat mainspring housing;
- an extended beaver tail; which also
- incorporates some variation of enhanced thickness in the business area of the grip safety.

And it is all because shooters started thinking the high grip gave them a significant advantage on the 1911 and started an entire chain of problems leading to solutions that caused more problems that required more solutions.

Don't let anyone ever tell you the 1911 is dated or hasn't evolved.
 
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Back in the 70's, at NSA or Naval Support Activity Naples, the Marine guards at the gate to NSA carried 1911's, loaded mags but empty chamber.
 
Shark Bait, stansdds, AJ, and BB57,

Thank you for helping me understand. I possess a couple of 1911s, strictly for range stuff. I do not have enough knowledge of them to be comfortable carrying one. For me, the S&W Model 22-4 is the ticket.

Kevin
 
Back in the 70's, at NSA or Naval Support Activity Naples, the Marine guards at the gate to NSA carried 1911's, loaded mags but empty chamber.

That was the way it was done under the Marine Barracks system. I was the Guard Chief at NWS Seal Beach, Ca and that was how we still did it in the late 1980's. When the Marine Corps Security Force Battalions took over in late '88, we went to Condition One carry.
 
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