Model 1917 - Need help (1918 HE with original lanyard)

[LongColt45]

I have an opportunity to buy this gun from a neighbor, who got it from his daughter, who got it from her ex, who inherited it from his dad who was a WWII combat vet.

Facts:
Serial number is 160xx, dating to 1918.

Probably 90% finish remaining. One tiny ding on the frame, plus a few small areas where the bluing has worn and rust started but was arrested with only discoloration as a result - no pitting or flaking. Factory original dished stocks in very good+ condition for their age.

Serial numbers match on five locations on the gun, including in pencil on the inside of the right stock.

The UNITED STATES PROPERTY mark, the model and serial number on the butt and GHS the stamp are sharp and clear. There is an "S" on the frame above the factory assembly numbers and on the barrel after the serial number but near the frame. This revolver does not have the circular hammer grooves.

Attached was an original WWI-era lanyard in excellent condition, with the Feb 1917 patent date. No holster or other accessories.

Actions Taken
The action was stiff and gritty, the cylinder holes and bore looked like they had not been cleaned in several decades. I removed the side plate and, as expected, found the internals coated with dried oil which had turned to varnish. So I detail stripped and cleaned everything, which after lubrication resulted in a smooth, slick action.
Significant scrubbing of the bore and cylinder holes removed most of the residue. The lands and grooves now look sharp, although there are still traces of black varnish-like material on the lands. The cylinder holes are now "smooth" but are heavily stained a grey color over much of their surfaces. More work needed ...

Lockup is bank vault tight and the timing is perfect. The cylinder/barrel gap is .006". Zero end shake.

Questions
The cylinder charge holes are NOT through-bored, so a .45 ACP cartridge will drop in to the throat shoulder and headspace on the case mouth. However, there is still a somewhat large gap (.017") between the case head and the recoil shield.

Can .45 ACPs be fired without moon clips is this weapon, or do I need to use the clips?

I want to buy this at a fair price for both parties, I don't need to get a great deal but I don't want to pay a high premium either.
My copy of the SCSW is the 4th Edition (2016), and shows a value of $1000 for a M1917 in very good condition.

What is your estimate of the condition and value, based on what I have represented? Does the lanyard provide any additional value?

Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and expertise.

Oh, yeah - pictures would be good ...

 

[LongColt45]

More Pictures...

Photos are from my iPhone, not the best quality - sorry.

 

[LongColt45]

... and a final few

Thanks again, guys.
LongColt

 

[cblcar]

1917 value

Hello LongColt45 , Here in the SF Bay Area I would value the 1917 with lanyard at high end @ $900. In my experience, 1917’s in like condition are hard to find. I’ve been watching ads for a few years and they don’t come up often. I have purchased several in poorer condition for less but low end @ $700. I am a low budget collector so your mileage may vary.

 

[cblcar]

1917 value.

LongColt45 , your question about the .45ACP in your 1917 yes they can be shot without the moon clips. They need to be ejected with a pencil or similar tool due to the cartridge being rimless. A popular alternative is to shoot .45 Auto Rim which will eject without the clips. Many like using the clips for faster reloads.
Good luck with your purchase.

 

[merl67]

That is a pretty nice one, and not messed with. I could see that selling between $700-900 pretty easily and perhaps higher.

 

[StrawHat]

Nice looking revolver. Been looking for one myself. As shown, probably $700-$850 in my area.

Kevin

 

[andyinlz]

Labor

After a reduction for your gunsmithing, $900 in Chicago.

 

[jmace57]

I guess I am right in there with others - I was going to say $850.

It's a nice one!

 

[lamarw]

One thing to remember is the seller is not incurring any cost. There is not any consignment cost, auction cost, or listing fees. You have already performed a service that increases the value. Fair to you and fair to them is possibly around $700.00 to $750.00 in my opinion.

I recently acquired a 1917 commercial at a very well publicized live & internet auction for $750.00. It is in Very Good Condition. They are far more scarce than the military 1917 and seem to bring more value.

 

[murphydog]

It is a nice early example, with the flat top wood stocks of about the first 16000 (?!) 1917 Army production.

I would guess it is worth about $750-800 in your situation.

 

[tenntex32]

Seems a little odd that the it does not have the concentric grooved hammer for such an early serial numbered example.

Other than that she looks to be a very nice example of an early production S&W M1917.

An original lanyard will add a small premium to the over all value as well.

This is a bit of a longshot...………..but is there a S&W factory rework date code stamped on the left side grip frame? It should look something like a one or two-digit month code followed by a two-digit year code.

Dale

 

[tenntex32]

It is a nice early example, with the flat top wood stocks of about the first 16000 (?!) 1917 Army production.

I would guess it is worth about $750-800 in your situation.

IIRC the concave topped wood stocks ended about s/n 35000 and the concentric grooved hammer stopped about serial number 16000 or so. That is why I am curious about the OP's hammer.


It simply could be that this frame was set aside for some unknown reason early in production to be completed after they stopped using concentric grooved hammers but while they were still using concave topped grips.


Assuming there is no factory rework date code the previous scenario would make the most sense to me...………….assuming the original hammer wasn't simply swapped out due to breakage by an armorer or gunsmith that had no ties to S&W.


I need to check my numbers for relative exactness regarding concentric grooved hammers and concave grips but I usually use up to the upper teens (16000 or so) for concentric grooved hammers and s/n 35000 or less for concave topped grips. Of course there are exceptions to this rule and this is by no means exact due to oddities happening at the factory during production/assembly/delivery.


I have a factory letter stating that S&W delivered approx 25000 units with concentric grooved hammers...……...but of course this does not necessarily mean it was s/n 1 thru 25000, but "typically" we will see them predominantly till around the mid-teens or so. Obviously this is not a hard rule and it very well could be that the OP's hammer is original due to a hiccup in the production time line for that specific gun.


In my collection I have an all original example in the 166xx s/n range that has the concave top grips but does not have the expected concentric grooved hammer. (Similar to the OP's example) If S&W truly delivered 25000 units with the concentric grooved hammer then there must have been some skipping around of the serial numbers during their use for production.


If the OP's example is truly original I would value it at $1000+, especially with an original lanyard. It might not be what you guys would pay for it but even at $1000 it would still be under what I have seen other similar "early" examples go for.


Dale

 

[merl67]

After a reduction for your gunsmithing, $900 in Chicago.

What gunsmithing are you referring to, all I can read is he gave it a much needed cleaning, and lubrication...

 

[JH1951]

Much better than average piece in my opinion.
The stocks and hammer do pose a question, but again, IMHO, not really enough to make much of a difference. My guestimate would be $800. range as long as the bore and chambers turn out really nice. A bit nicer finish could run it up to $1K quickly, but it isn't there. And don't forget you have invested some time in this to get it where it is condition wise.
Check GB ended sales history and you will get a very good idea on what people are paying.

 

[Jack Flash]

Lamarw makes a key observation in that the neighbor will not incur a lot of fees by simply selling it to you. That could amount to $300 easily. Not that you want to chisel the guy, but if he wants to get rid of it, you are doing him a big favor.

He must trust you to let you take it home and disassemble it. That too has worked in his favor, considering that such a thorough cleaning would easily run $50. My guess is no way he could do it himself.

Finish condition isn't the greatest, but it isn't a rust bucket either. No one has mentioned this, but I am wondering if the stocks have been refinished. The ones I have seen are darker than that, plus those look a little shiny. So selling it at the top of the range is not likely.

So I think $700 is more than fair to him. I think he would be lucky to sell it for $900 in an auction, so if you deduct all the requisite costs and fees, he would probably only clear $600 or less. So if you got it for that, it would be more than fair to you.

 

[LongColt45]

Thanks

Thanks for all the replies, guys. Excellent information and opinions.

Looks like most of you value this piece a bit lower than I might of, probably maybe you guys assess the condition as "good" instead of "very good"?

Answers to a couple of queries:

1) I think the "gunsmithing" mentioned by andyinlz was referring the detailed disassembly, cleaning and lubrication I performed. I did not swap any parts, and I even restored the mainspring tension to it's original pre-disassembly setting.

There are no factory rework stamps anywhere on this firearm - one of the first things I looked for.

Any other thoughts on this?
Thanks again.

 

[LongColt45]

The stocks appear to me to be in original condition, and never refinished. I am certainly by no means an expert on this, but I do have a lot of experience with and exposure to wood finishes from this era.

LC

 

[Jack Flash]

Another thing to keep in mind is what a local gun shop would offer for it. That is usually a shocker. My guess is $300 or less. Maybe much less.

It's a nice gun and it would be nice to have it. Of course you want to be fair to him, but don't forget to be fair to yourself.

 

[Muley Gil]

Can .45 ACPs be fired without moon clips is this weapon, or do I need to use the clips?


No, clips are necessary if you desire ejection, but are not necessary for range shooting. Often, you can raise the muzzle up and just shake the empties out.

I like it. Hope you can buy it.