Hello all. I'm new to the forum and have a question about a M1917 I have. It has all the markings of a US Army gun, matching serial numbers, matching assembly numbers, inspection stamps, etc. It also has a Nitro Proof mark (NP with arm & sword) wth .45" .900" 7 TONS which I understand means the gun was released to the British civilian market. True? If so, what happened in between its time with the US Army and its time in the UK? There are several other marks, including a flaming bomb, three eagle heads (with S2, S4, and S24), A9 on the bottom left butt near the grip alignment pin, M on the other side of the butt, R in the yolk cut. There are also seven identical London stamps, a Crown over the interlaced letters GP, one in each cylinder flute, and one on the bottom, right side of the frame, forward of the trigger. What I don't find are any UK proofs on the barrel, no crossed swords, or Not English Made. It also has no serial number on the bottom of the barrel. That area is blank and perfectly flat. Is this normal? Any insight into this gun's history would be greatly appreciated.
Model 1917 - Nitro Proof but no British Military Proofs?
- Thread starter baeddy59
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I misread your description, I now see the stamps on the cylinder flutes. Don't think I've seen that before. Initially thought you meant they were on the back of the cylinder. Interesting, hope someone knows.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
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I once had a WWII U.S. M3 "Grease gun" in the original 45acp made by Guide Lam (General Motors). Guide Lamp also made a small number of M3s in 9mm for the Brits in WWII but this one was in 45 and had the Nitro proof marks with no acceptance stamps and was coatd in the Mark II STEN black paint. I sent numerous photos to the British War Museum who was unable to shed any light. You have to wonder if these odd balls weren't part of some covert operation.
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Jack Flash
Member
The US sent something like 20,000 M1917 revolvers to England under the Lend Lease program. This may be one of those. The barrel may have been replaced before it was put into storage (in the US, after WWI ended). This revolver probably fired a lot of corrosive ammunition, not to mention it went through a war, so it's not hard to imagine its barrel needed to be replaced.
I don't know if all Lend Lease guns got military acceptance marks. Maybe this one was issued to Civil Defense Personnel. Things were pretty chaotic in England during the Battle of Britian. Who knows what shortcuts were being taken to get guns distributed where they were desperately needed.
After WWII, the Brits marked them up like they always do, and disposed of it as they saw fit.
I don't know if all Lend Lease guns got military acceptance marks. Maybe this one was issued to Civil Defense Personnel. Things were pretty chaotic in England during the Battle of Britian. Who knows what shortcuts were being taken to get guns distributed where they were desperately needed.
After WWII, the Brits marked them up like they always do, and disposed of it as they saw fit.
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The gun's barrel had a serial number when S&W built it. The barrel was probably replaced by a Government armorer at Rock Island Arsenal before it was shipped to England in June- Sept, 1940.
You're close. It was 20,000 Model 1917s, but they were a direct sale authorized by FDR some 9 months before the Lend-Lease Act came to exist. To keep from violating the Neutrality Act, the guns were "sold" to the US Steel Export Corporation who then sold them to Britain.
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Forgot to say that this can be considered a true Battle of Britain gun. France had just fallen and the Brits had been pushed into the sea at Dunkirk when FDR authorized the sale. They expected Nazis to hit their beaches and pastures (Fallschirmjägers) just any day now. 
Welcome to the Forum.
This revolver would have been issued to the US Army in WW I and probably to the Home Guard in Great Britian during WW II.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
The year of manufacture for serial number 156639 is 1919. So it never left the US in WWI but it did for the UK as the others pointed out.
StrawHat
Member
Jack Flash
Member
Thanks for the information regarding Lend Lease. In my mind, everything was Lend Lease when obviously that is not the case. I know that before LL the US had to go through some other legal gymnastics to maintain the illusion of neutrality.
As to being in the service of the British Army in WWII, I believe anything is possible. Since it is chambered for .45 ACP and not the standard British service handgun cartridge of that time, it's more likely it was used by the Home Guard and stayed in England. It's practically impossible to know who used it and where it was used.
As to being in the service of the British Army in WWII, I believe anything is possible. Since it is chambered for .45 ACP and not the standard British service handgun cartridge of that time, it's more likely it was used by the Home Guard and stayed in England. It's practically impossible to know who used it and where it was used.
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Pate says many of these 1917s were ultimately issued to New Zealand troops, and I have seen photos of them with 1917s.
The English proofs are from the London Proof Hs.
The style that is stamped onto the bbl is that authorized in the 1954 British Proof Law.
The additional London Proof Mark (Crown/GP) is stamped onto the Frame and the Cylinder.
That each chamber is stamped with the Crown/GP is a bit different.
Normally under the 1954 Law, the back face of the cylinder would recv a single mark.
Marking all 6 chambers on the outside of circumference of the cylinder was something that was done earlier than the Proof Law of 1925 (and usually on revolvers of Foreign Make).
There is no London Proof 'View Mark' (Crown/V),,and that would be correct for guns proofed under the 1954 Rules as that particular mark was eliminated from use.
Additionally, there is no 'Not English Make' marking, again that was a marking used under the 1925 Rules and then eliminated from use.
So other than the cylinder proof markings being applied in a pattern and placement normally seen used earlier by the Proof Hs, the markings all seem to be under the 1954 Rules.
It's not unknown to find the markings done this way.
A gun that was surplused would have needed to Proofed before being sold commercially.
Any gun brought in for repairs that didn't have any proofs on it would have needed to be proofed before returning it to it's owner,,no matter what the repairs were.
An already Proofed revolver having certain repairs done that effect lock up, bbl or cylinder repair/replacement, etc would need to be re-proofed before return to owner.
Those would show the second (or additional) set(s) of proof marks on the gun.
They can end up being tattooed quite heavily with proof marks.
The style that is stamped onto the bbl is that authorized in the 1954 British Proof Law.
The additional London Proof Mark (Crown/GP) is stamped onto the Frame and the Cylinder.
That each chamber is stamped with the Crown/GP is a bit different.
Normally under the 1954 Law, the back face of the cylinder would recv a single mark.
Marking all 6 chambers on the outside of circumference of the cylinder was something that was done earlier than the Proof Law of 1925 (and usually on revolvers of Foreign Make).
There is no London Proof 'View Mark' (Crown/V),,and that would be correct for guns proofed under the 1954 Rules as that particular mark was eliminated from use.
Additionally, there is no 'Not English Make' marking, again that was a marking used under the 1925 Rules and then eliminated from use.
So other than the cylinder proof markings being applied in a pattern and placement normally seen used earlier by the Proof Hs, the markings all seem to be under the 1954 Rules.
It's not unknown to find the markings done this way.
A gun that was surplused would have needed to Proofed before being sold commercially.
Any gun brought in for repairs that didn't have any proofs on it would have needed to be proofed before returning it to it's owner,,no matter what the repairs were.
An already Proofed revolver having certain repairs done that effect lock up, bbl or cylinder repair/replacement, etc would need to be re-proofed before return to owner.
Those would show the second (or additional) set(s) of proof marks on the gun.
They can end up being tattooed quite heavily with proof marks.
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