Model 2 (Army) - Repair Questions?

[VPNAVY]

I picked up this Model 2 (very cheap) for obvious reasons! After sitting in a ATF for three days and Vinegar for two days - I was able to remove most of the rust, gunk, etc. Yuppa - I know that decreases its value but it was so cheap that I thought I could use it to learn, etc. Anyway, the entire puppy was frozen (must have been outside for 100 years) but now the cylinder rotates, barrel catch now works, able to remove side plate and screw, etc. Yes, ordered a cylinder stop pin (missing one). I have to now work on removing the barrel pivot screw (looks like the previous owner went to battle on it) so I can attempt to tighten up the barrel, etc.

Here are my questions.

1. My other Model 2's have a ejector pin screw holding the ejector pin in place - this one doesn't have a hole for a screw so it appears the previous owner found a replacement and drilled a hole in the barrel and filled it in! Has anyone seen this done before?

2. You will notice marks (on both sides) just below the barrel screw. I can only figure the previous owner was trying to get the barrel to tighten up?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[gmborkovic]

Hello VP, found one very similar in a shed in VA. It amazes me how good the Rosewood grips look. Im sure they are numbered. I still have mine. After soaking, it finally functioned. I have not taken a screw driver to it. The hinge screw looks fussed to the barrel. I leave it alone. The old guy threw it in on a log splitter deal we had. Enjoy it , Best

 

[VPNAVY]

Thanks Mike. Unfortunately, the S/N of the Army is in the 37K range and the grips are numbered in the 21K range. Yuppa on the hinge screw - not sure I will be able to remove it. No problem - the Army looks good hanging on the wall.

Thanks!

 

[gmborkovic]

VP, it deserves to just live on the wall. Back in the 1860s, that was the hot lick for carry guns. No mess, just neat little shell casings. Nice find. Best

 

[opoefc]

Your Model 2 is a survivor of the custom restoration shop of "Bubba & sons" who motto is " If it's broke, we can fix it!" It's always fun to inspection old guns that have survived ingenious methods of repairs. I recently sold a Winchester Model 66 Yellow Boy, originally a .44 Henry RF caliber, retrieved years ago from a gun buying trip to the Hopi Reservation Trading Post in AZ., where an Indian Gunsmith had converted it to .38-40 CF, using a barrel from a single shot Winchester, It worked like a charm ! Ed.

 

[VPNAVY]

Dang Ed - I think I will google "Bubba & Sons!"

 

[JSR III]

David Chicione's book has a whole section on how to tighten up tip up barrel hinge screws as well as how to remove and or replace them. He even has all of the dimensions of the screws showing length, diameter, head diameter and height. Probably 6 or 7 different numbers so one can reproduce a screw if necessary. There was also a method to attach a new head on to a screw shank using silver solder. Really amazing stuff. I picked up my copy on eBay for short money. Well worth the investment if one plans to tinker with any of the single digit S&W models.

 

[opoefc]

From the photo, I can see "Bubba" has used the old cold chisel and big hammer approach to tighten up the hinge. This technique is usually needed when the screw has lost all appearances of a screw and become a pin. A few good whacks with the hammer & chisel and the metal is compressed around the hinge pin enough to take up the slack - Bingo! No barrel wobble. Ed. ( Dave Chicoine forgot to include that in his "How to Fix it" chapter )

 

[VPNAVY]

David Chicione's book has a whole section on how to tighten up tip up barrel hinge screws as well as how to remove and or replace them...

Dang - forgot all about his book. I also picked one up on EBay (Expanded 2nd Edition) - will look it up.

THANKS!

 

[VPNAVY]

From the photo, I can see "Bubba" has used the old cold chisel and big hammer approach to tighten up the hinge. This technique is usually needed when the screw has lost all appearances of a screw and become a pin. A few good whacks with the hammer & chisel and the metal is compressed around the hinge pin enough to take up the slack - Bingo! No barrel wobble. Ed. ( Dave Chicoine forgot to include that in his "How to Fix it" chapter )

Well, it sure didn't work. Their is enough barrel wobble right now to make a fan out of it!

 

[JSR III]

I too wondered how one might tighten up the hinge before reading the correct procedure in Dave's book. I never considered the hammer and cold chisel method as was attempted on the OP's gun. My thought was that one might remove the screw and squeeze the hinge a bit in a vise.

Now after reading the book, I am more inclined to think that the relationship between the screw head and the hole in the hinge have more to do with proper function than anything else. IIRC, Dave's method of correction, since it would be difficult to add metal to the hinge hole, is to make a larger headed screw.

This hinge design was probably one of the major factors that led S&W to switch to the top break design. The hinge was not as big an issue with the model 1's due to the short barrel and the fact that they were most likely never used as a club. With the model 2 armies, and their longer and heavier barrels, much more wear was placed on the hinge and if used as a club to whack someone over the head, much more damage could occur.

Those are my thoughts, yours may differ.

 

[VPNAVY]

Appreciate everyone's comments. The strange thing about the hammer/chisel approach is it would do nothing to reduce the play. In fact - if you remove the screw - the barrel assembly is out of play so the chisel marks don't make sense to me.

The ideal way would be to remove the screw and barrel - that leaves the screw holders alone - carefully place in a vice and draw both holders a little closer.

I plan on applying heat then applying some Kroil and letting sit overnight. My problem is the screw slot is just about gone and I don't want to go the next route - drill out the screw. I just have to give it one good try before calling it a day.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

 

[JSR III]

I think that the thought behind the hammer and cold chisel method is similar to the vice idea. Remove the screw and barrel and hold the hinge over something hard like a vice or anvil and tap the "ears" together with blows from the hammer and chisel. With reduced play between these three surfaces, the thought is that you would eliminate the side to side wobble that many number 2's or tip ups display.

As I said above, my thought now is that the wobble is due more to the screw head slopping around in the frame hole and therefore either the hole must be reduced in size or the screw head enlarged. Adding metal to the hole uniformly would be difficult so making a screw with a larger diameter head seems to make more sense. The only real problem with this approach is that the screw threads were proprietary to S&W and dies may not be available. David states in his book that there was a supplier that he found that had screws with this thread and he was able to modify them to solve the issue. Otherwise he talks about taking rod stock and making a screw totally from scratch. That seems to be something that only someone with real metal skills and a lathe could easily accomplish.

 

[torizus]

Appreciate everyone's comments. The strange thing about the hammer/chisel approach is it would do nothing to reduce the play. In fact - if you remove the screw - the barrel assembly is out of play so the chisel marks don't make sense to me.

The ideal way would be to remove the screw and barrel - that leaves the screw holders alone - carefully place in a vice and draw both holders a little closer.

I plan on applying heat then applying some Kroil and letting sit overnight. My problem is the screw slot is just about gone and I don't want to go the next route - drill out the screw. I just have to give it one good try before calling it a day.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

I have a few project grade Merwin Hulberts that had screws and parts totally locked up. I used the Kroil and also Marvel Mystery Oil. Works every time so long as you're patient. I have left frames in Marvels for over a week,turning them around every couple days and always had screws,pins etc loosen up.

 

[mmaher94087]

VP, Kroil overnight may not be enough time. These parts have been (rusted?) together for 140 years. Apply the Kroil and heat with a heat-gun and repeat. The screw head is the link to success and the avoidance of drilling out the screw is paramount. Clean the slot as best you can then clean it again. Lastly, use a proper fitting, hollow ground screwdriver. With the screwdriver blade firmly in place; rap the top of the handle with a plastic mallet and apply twisting pressure (torque) to the screw. Apply the torque to loosen then tighten. If nothing moves, soak longer in Kroil, heat again and start everything over again. Be patient, 140 years is a long time.

 

[VPNAVY]

OK Gang - thanks for everyone's kind comments and suggestions. I will let ya know how it goes shortly.

Again - thanks!

 

[VPNAVY]

OK - got the screw out! Now, anyone know where I can get a replacement? At this stage of the game - it doesn't have to be an original.

 

[VPNAVY]

On barrel screw...

 

[mmaher94087]

"Sam1947 is the guy..". This tidbit was supplied to me from ttesh on the sw-forum. Sam1947 is also on the forum and makes repro screws for the S&W.

 

[VPNAVY]

Thanks mmaher94087 - I just sent Sam1947 (and you) a PM.

Thanks again!