Model 3

[i69golf]

Hi,

I'm new to the Forum. I recently moved from Chicago to Massachusetts and was shocked to find-out that I could not purchases any reproductions of the S&W Model 3 Schofield. The only manufacturer they allow is Smith & Wesson. I would like to purchase one as I consider it an important gun in U.S history, but also around the world.

Any suggestions would be appreciated as to where I might bid/purchase a S&W Model 3.

 

[cgt4570]

Keep an eye out on Proxibid auctions. They turn up from time to time.

 

[model3sw]

They allow the Schofield 2000 reproduction or do you need to purchase and original 1873-75 Schofield ?

 

[i69golf]

Thanks for your replies. I will check-out Proxibid auctions. Also Massachusetts, from what I understand, will allow a S&W Model 3 Schofield for purchase whether it is a 2000 Schofield reproduction or anything else. It just has to be made by S&W. Then I can buy it or have a dealer purchase it.

 

[BMur]

Massachusetts Gun laws

The NRA website has all gun laws for all the States in the Union. If you want to perform some basic and fun research?
Massachusetts Gun laws closely mimic California or vice versa if your offended?
Antique Schofields still must go through a dealer registration process since the black powder round is being manufactured.
Qualified FFL Dealers have all of that information provided to them on computer accounts directly from the ATF.
They also have updated State laws but those are often misinterpreted by FFL holders so the “ doesn’t allow” is very likely a misinterpretation of a State Law! Happens in California all the time!!
Some FFL holders go above and beyond the law which doesn’t do anyone any good!
Tell them to show you the “ Doesn’t allow in writing”!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of confusing Massachusetts gun laws.

Perhaps someone who has lived in Massachusetts for close to 50 years and has seen many changes in MASS gunlaws over the years should chime in here. Someone with direct experience with MASS gunlaws.

On October 21 1998 the Massachusetts Attorney General released a set of public safety standards that all handguns sold in Massachusetts must meet. The Gun Owners Action League of Massachusetts sued the Attorney General at that time, but the only concession the courts made was that handguns registered in Mass prior to that date that did not meet the new safety requirements could still be sold in the state. Note that these safety standards were not enacted by the legislature, they were simply published by the AG one day under his own initiative. In other words, the legislature has no say over these standards.

Here is the gist of the safety standards. Pay particular attention to the second bulleted item about being prone to accidental discharge as measured by drop testing

Design Safety Standards for Handguns in Massachusetts | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


Pay particular attention to the safety standard of handguns being prone to accidental discharge if dropped on the hammer. That is the key to what we are talking about today.

The ONLY single action revolvers legal for sale in Massachusetts are those made by Ruger with a transfer bar that positively prevents an accidental discharge if dropped on the hammer. None of the other manufacturers of SINGLE ACTION revolvers, Colt, Uberti, Pietta, and yes Smith and Wesson have models that are approved for sale in Massachusetts. Yes, the Schofield model is a single action revolver. You have to cock the hammer for every shot.

The regulations required all handgun manufacturers who wanted to sell their products in MASS to submit THREE samples of each model to the state for destructive testing. It gets more complicated than that, because the state decided that each different SKU number constituted a separate model. So the same model with different barrel lengths had to each be tested to destruction. So none of the manufacturers opted to send any revolvers to Mass for destructive testing, instead preferring to write off any sales in Massachusetts.

EXCEPT RUGER! Ruger wrote a letter to the AG stating that all their models would pass the destructive tests because of the transfer bar. In addition, Ruger went to bat for MASS FFL dealers stating that they would foot the legal bills for any dealer who sold a Ruger product that the state decided to take to court.

The AG blinked, and almost all Ruger revolvers are now legal for sale in Massachusetts. Not quite all, but you can go to the Ruger website and see which ones are 'Mass Compliant' and which ones are not.

That is why I will never say anything bad about Ruger, because they went to bat for all Massachusetts gun owners while the rest looked the other way. Ruger still submits models to the state for destructive testing so they can be legally sold in Mass. I shudder to think how much that costs.

Back to the question at hand.

Here is the most recent list of handguns approved for sale in Massachusetts. Scroll down to Sturm Ruger and see how many there are. Notice there is nothing on the list made by Colt. Scroll down to Smith and Wesson, and despite the fact that many S&W models are MASS Compliant, you will not see the Schofield Model of 2000 listed. That is the one the Original Poster was asking about. Sorry, not on the list. I suspect S&W did not bother to submit it because they knew it would not pass a drop test. Drop it on the hammer with a live round under the hammer and it will probably fire. So will a Colt, and most of the modern replicas of a Colt. Bottom line, the Schofield Model of 2000, which S&W made around the year 2000, is not Mass Compliant and cannot be sold in Massachusetts.



https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2019/06/19/Approved Firearms Roster 05-2019.pdf




Do not buy the S&W Schofield Model of 2000 or any of the Italian reproductions on line or at an online auction. The gun will have to be shipped to an FFL in Massachusetts, and any FFL in MASS who knows the Mass gunlaws will not accept it. Then you will be stuck having to ship it back to the seller and trying to get your money back.



Your best bet to buy a Schofield, or any of the other S&W Number Three Top Breaks in Massachusetts is to buy an antique. Forget the bit about not being allowed because the ammo is still manufactured. That is an interpretation of Federal gun laws I hear all the time. Every dealer I am familiar with has no problem selling an antique revolver (manufactured before 1899) in Massachusetts, regardless of whether factory ammunition is still available. All original Number Three Top Breaks are considered antiques because all frames were manufactured before 1899, even though they may have been sold into the 20th Century. You can thank the S&W historian Roy Jinks for that. Mass follows the example of the Federal gun laws regarding antiques, but just to be different it has to have been made prior to 1898, rather than 1899, to qualify as an antique in Mass.

I also suggest in addition to getting your MASS License to Carry you look into getting a Curio and Relic license. This is a Firearms License issued by the BATF for collecting purposes only. With some exceptions, most firearms that are at least 50 years old are legal for a C&R holder to buy. A C&R is not for doing business, it is not for making a profit. It is only for collecting purposes. C&R holders are required to maintain a bound book. All firearms bought under your C&R are recorded in your book, and any you also required to note when you have disposed of any. A C&R license allows you to walk into any dealer anywhere in the country and walk out with a firearm on the C&R list. Mass residents are required by the state to register their C&R purchases on line with the state. A C&R license allows you greater access to firearms that may or may not be listed on the official AG's approved list.

Lastly, I strongly suggest you join the Gun Owner's Action League (GOAL). For a small fee you will receive email notices every week regarding legislative activity in MASS that gun owners should be aware of. Remember, it was GOAL that sued the AG in 1998.

Gun Owners' Action League of Massachusetts - GOAL.ORG

Any questions you have about Mass gunlaws call the Goal Office and ask for Jon Green. Best to join first.


The NRA does not do squat for MASS gun owners.

P.S. Forget about buying an AR15 in Massachusetts. The current AG shut down all AR sales in Mass a couple of years ago. Again, nothing the legislature passed, she did it on her own initiative in the name of public safety.

 

[BMur]

I thought California was bad! WOW!
I really liked the Baltimore Show but stopped attending due to fear of unknowingly breaking some vague, undecipherable gun law that can’t be agreed upon by various law enforcement agencies. With me in the middle.

 

[i69golf]

Hi Driftwood Johnson,

Thanks for your reply that was very informative and helpful. I have joined GOAL as you suggested. I note on the compliant list that the S&W M3 Schofield .45 S&W Schofield is on the list. Does this mean if I can find a S&W Model 3 prior to 1898, I can purchase it through a Mass. FFL? Again thanks for your help.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'm dumbfounded. I did not notice that the Schofield was on the list. I was looking for 'Schofield' I did not notice it listed under 'M3'.

Frankly, I am dumbfounded because I do not understand how the Schofield Model of 2000 was able to pass a drop test. I have examined a few and I do not recollect it having a transfer bar in it. Perhaps S&W added a modification to make it pass a drop test.

A drop test means putting a live round (or something similar) into the chamber under the hammer and literally dropping the gun from a specified height, probably 30 inches, onto its hammer spur. Most single action revolvers, even though they had a so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, keeping the firing pin about 1/8" away a primer, would fail this test because the 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, or the trigger sear, would shear off, causing a round to fire.

So I do not know how S&W managed to get the Schofield model of 2000 onto the approved list for sale in Massachusetts.

Let's be clear here.

The 1st Model Schofield was only manufactured in 1875 and there were only 3035 of them made. The 2nd Model Schofield had a slightly changed barrel latch from the 1st Model. It was only manufactured in 1876 and 1877. There were a total of 5,934 2nd Models produced. So all told, there were only slightly less than 9,000 Schofields produced. They are all antiques because they were produced long before the 1899 deadline.

In January of 2000 Smith and Wesson reintroduced the Schofield model with a limited run from the Performance Center. I don't have a total for how many were made, but they were only made from 2000 until 2002. And apparently a 'modern hammer block safety' was built in, according to the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. So that must be how the modern version was able to be included on the Massachusetts Approved Firearms Roster.

I am very surprised, happily so for you.

So.............

If you find an original 1st or 2nd model Schofield, it is an antique and you can buy it without any paperwork at all, although I do suggest you obtain a License to Carry from your local police chief.

If you find one of the modern Schofield Model of 2000 (sometimes referred to as the 3rd Model Schofield), you can have it transferred to a dealer in Mass and he should be able to complete the transfer for you. Of course, you must hold a License to Carry to own this firearm.

HOWEVER I WOULD TALK TO A DEALER FIRST TO MAKE SURE HE WILL TRANSFER IT TO YOU.



The Italian reproductions of the Schofield model, and the Russian model too, are all made by Uberti. Nothing made by Uberti is on the Approved List, so you cannot buy an Uberti replica of the Schofield model and have a Massachusetts FFL transfer it to you. The only other reproduction of the Schofield model I am aware of was produced by ASM quite a number of years ago, and you do not want one. They were junk.




Just so you know, there were five separate large frame Top Break revolvers that S&W made in the 1800s. They are all built on the #3 size frame, but they are not all Schofields. A lot of times buyers and dealers do not understand that.

The five models were:

The American Model. Actually this is a 1st model Russian, but the American Model looked the same. The only difference was the American Model was chambered for the 44 S&W American round, while the 1st Model Russian was chambered for the 44 Russian round. The key to identifying the American model is the grip is very straight up and down, and the extractor housing is very long.

The Russian Model. The key to identifying the Russian Model is the big hump on the grip and the spur on the trigger guard. Sometimes the trgger guard spur was sawn off, but they all started with it. This is a 2nd Model Russian, the 3rd Model had a thumb screw on the top strap to make removing the cylinder easier.

The Schofield model. Easily identified by the frame mounted barrel latch. Also, the grip was the most rounded of the five different models. This is a 1st Model Schofield.

The New Model Number Three. Identified by the less prominent hump on the grip frame and the very short extractor housing. Some of these had a trigger guard spur, but most did not.

The 44 Double Action. The only large frame Top Break double action revolver S&W made. There were several different versions. This is the most common version, chambered for 44 Russian.

 

[mrcvs]

What I have wondered for a long time is why Massachusetts (and Connecticut) are so rabidly anti-2A?

The Connecticut River Valley was the breadbasket of the firearms industry in this country, historically. As this industry provided jobs for citizens residing in this area and paid into the local tax infrastructure, why wouldn't the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the State of Connecticut (and their coffers) welcome the firearms industry with open arms, historically and presently?

If there was even the least bit of resistance, lobbyists should have been willing to go to bat for the firearms industry. That area should be solidly pro 2A, but that couldn't be further from the truth!

Why?

I think I even recall former Connecticut governor Malloy, cognizant of how much money the firearms industry brought into Connecticut even then, stated that the state didn't need or want their tax dollars. This despite the state having driven much of the industry away already due to high labor costs and high taxes. And it's not as if the state could actually afford to give up those tax dollars, being in a perpetual fiscal crisis.

Obviously, the populace votes these politicians in, so the general sentiment of the population is obviously not to be fearful of an absent firearms industry and the resultant loss of tax dollars and ancillary jobs it provides, but to be fearful of its presence.

Believe it or not, and I probably shouldn't admit this, but I darn near was born in the shadow of the Colt dome. If the local sentiment was to create jobs, instead of a welfare state, I might still be there.

My apologies for the diatribe, but it hits close to the heart.

The main 'take home message" of this post is the following question: How did the major firearms manufacturing region of this country become such that the local and state governments no longer supported it and how did the firearms industry allow this to happen with what appears to be very little resistance?

 

[sspierce8]

Pic of US issued model 3 American. 1 of 1,000.

 

[i69golf]

Hi Everybody,

I want to thank all of you for your help. In looking back over the replies I definitely want to thank Driftwood Johnson for your excellent information and pictures. I also noticed that "Antiquesmiths" initially stated that Massachusetts allowed the Schofield 2000 reproduction and asked me if I was interested in that or the original Schofields manufactured from 1873-1875. It doesn't matter to me what time period - I'm just delighted that I can purchase a S&W Schofield in Massachusetts. Now all I have to do is find a Model 3!

 

[i69golf]

Wikipedia states the following:

Smith & Wesson manufactured a modern reproduction of the original Model 3 Revolvers from 2000 to 2003. Despite being touted as a "true" reproduction, there are significant differences between the modern version and the original. Side-by-side comparison of an original with the pre-production gun showed that the new version is slightly more stout than the original around the barrel and top strap, though not as much as on the Navy Arms guns. Changes in the internal lock mechanism were also made. The "reproduction" S&W Model 3 firing pin is frame-mounted instead of being an integral part of the hammer, a modern safety feature - with a transfer bar as a practical safety catch in a revolver - preventing accidental discharge if dropped.

There is no transfer bar on the firing pin but a blocking bar on the hammer, should it slip off the thumb when cocking the pistol. A heavier cylinder was fitted into the stronger frame. Unlike the Uberti reproductions that have a longer-than original cylinder and frame, the S&W was made to only accommodate the shorter original Schofield rounds.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Now all I have to do is find a Model 3!

Howdy Again

As I have stated several times, there were five distinctly different models that S&W built on the #3 frame. Model 3, or #3 only refers to frame size. The photos I posted earlier show the similarities and differences of the five different models. If you want a Schofield, you want a Schofield. Be specific. After the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven came out, with the Schofield Kid character carrying a Schofield, Roy Jinks, the S&W historian said he got a lot of inquiries from people who thought they had a Schofield. Turns out some did not.

I made the same mistake myself. I came across this New Model Number Three in a local shop about 15 years ago. I exclaimed 'Wow, a Schofield!' The shop owner calmly informed me it was a New Model Number Three.

I always say all Schofields are #3s, but not all #3s are Schofields.

Frankly, in my opinion the New Model Number Three was a better gun than the Schofield, but it does not have the same mystique as the Schofield.




Transfer Bars.

This is a transfer bar. Standard on all Ruger revolvers since the mid 1970s. As the name states, the transfer bar transfers the energy of the hammer to the frame mounted firing pin. With the hammer cocked, the transfer bar has risen to a position so that when struck by the hammer it will transfer the hammer blow to the firing pin. After the trigger is released, a spring pulls the transfer bar down. In this condition the hammer bottoms on the frame and cannot contact the firing pin. This is why Ruger revolvers are on the Approved list in MASS. With the hammer down and the transfer bar retracted, there is no way a blow to the hammer spur will fire a round under the hammer.

I have examined a few Schofields from the 2000 build and I don't recall seeing a transfer bar in any of them. An internal hammer block could certainly be built in and it would not be visible from the outside. Modern S&W revolvers have had hammer blocks in them for decades. The hammer block stays in position between the hammer and the frame and prevents the hammer mounted firing pin from striking a primer if the gun is dropped on its hammer. True to its name, it blocks the hammer. When the trigger is pulled the hammer block is withdrawn so the gun can fire. When the trigger is released the hammer block returns to its position blocking the hammer. A famous wartime incident in 1944 led to the design of the modern hammer block in S&W double action revolvers, but there were a couple of different designs of hammer blocks inside S&W revolvers for decades previous to that.




Cylinders

The Italian replicas of the Schofield, Russian, and New Model Number three all have cylinders lengthened to accept 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges. Only two specific models of the New Model Number Three ever had a cylinder long enough to accept the 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges.

19th Century #3 S&W Top Break cylinders were standardized at 1 7/16" long. This was an ideal length for the 44 S&W American cartridge and the 44 Russian cartridge. When S&W wanted to obtain a government contract to compete with the 45 Colt Single Action Army, the Army specified a 45 caliber cartridge would be required. S&W did not want to change the tooling for their frames and cylinders because they had huge contracts with the Russians and other governments for revolvers chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge. So instead, S&W came up with the 45 Schofield cartridge, which would fit in a cylinder 1 7/16" long.

Later, with the New Model #3 and the 44 Double Acton some models were built with cylinders 1 9/16" long to accommodate the 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges. With these models, S&W lengthened the frame by 1/8" to accommodate the longer cylinders.

What ASM and Uberti did was they lengthened the cylinders to accept longer cartridges, but they did not stretch the frame size an appropriate amount. Instead, the cylinder bushing at the front of the cylinder was shortened to allow the longer cylinder to fit into a frame window the same size as the originals. While this works fine with Smokeless powder, these replicas perform badly with Black Powder because the shorter bushing at the front of the cylinder does not do a very good job of preventing Black Powder fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap from binding up the cylinder.

The 2000 version of the Schofield made by S&W is only chambered for the shorter 45 Schofield round. It will not accept the longer 45 Colt round. While 45 Schofield ammunition is available today, it is not as easily available as the longer 45 Colt round.

This photo illustrates the difference in size between the 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. The two cartridges on the left in this photo are 45 Colts, the two cartridges on the right are 45 Schofields. The center two cartridges are old copper cased, Benet primed cartridges, the two on the outside are my own reloads.

 

[BMur]

Hey Driftwood?
What bullet are you using for your reloaded Schofield round? That's an interesting bluntnose cast. Almost a wad cutter. Also seated very deep. Excellent photo's.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

That bullet is one of the Big Lube series of bullets, specifically developed for shooting Black Powder in cartridges.
The Big Lube family all have huge lube grooves to hold lots of soft, Black Powder compatible bullet lube.
I actually designed that one myself. It is called the J/P 45-200, meaning it was designed by me and a guy named Peterson,
and it is 45 caliber and weighs 200 grains.

Here is a photo of the components. Schofield brass from Starline, about 28 grains of Schuetzen FFg, and the J/P 45-200 bullet.

Here is another view of some Black Powder bullets. Third from the left is the J/P 45-200.

Molds are available from the Big Lube web site.

Object reference not set to an instance of an object.

 

[BMur]

Now I know why I've never seen that one before. Very nice design. Huge lube groove. I know soft lube does a black powder barrel good. I always put some lithium grease on the face of the bullet also before shooting at the range. Seems to increase accuracy on the blunt nose bullets especially for some reason. With my 41 Long Single action it's a nail driver at 15 yards.

Murph