Model 41 blitzing it....

[Larks]

I may jinx myself in posting this but I'm very pleased to say that my M41 is a completely different gun since polishing the breech a few months ago.

I still clean and lube my CCI Standards with a very light wipe with G96 in a rag, but I've done that for a few years and still had persistent ejection failures.

It seems to have been the breech polishing that has turned the corner with this gun, though more likely a combination of the ammo cleaning, breech polishing and the aftermarket extractor (which I fitted years ago but which had no appreciable positive effect until now).

Before polishing the breech I was still getting consistent ejection failures. Since polishing the breech I've seen one ejection failure and I compete with it every fortnight, so 1 in @1200 rounds. (Other than a handful at the start that proved to be all from the same magazine, so I don't use that magazine anymore).

Overall I am finally very happy with this M41 and the proof is in the results.

This was the final rimfire Steel Challenge shoot for the Summer Comp' and while three of us knocked off the club record I also managed to top the two best shooters in the club (in Steel Challenge), so I'm pretty chuffed withy myself and with the guns performance :

[/url]IMG_3490 by Greg Larkin, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]IMG_3489 by Greg Larkin, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[tlawler]

Nice shooting! You beat the pants off the club record. How long had it stood?

I just picked up a M41 and only had a chance to shoot it last weekend. I'm going to get it out again this weekend. I really like shooting it!

 

[hberttmank]

Congratulations on some fine shooting!

 

[Exaviator]

Well done. That's what I have been advocating on various posts all along, keep the breech clean and a lot of ejection and misfire problems just disappear.

 

[Larks]

Well done. That's what I have been advocating on various posts all along, keep the breech clean and a lot of ejection and misfire problems just disappear.

I do agree that a 22 has to be kept clean to function properly, however I had consistently cleaned this gun immaculately after every shoot and continued to have persistent extraction problems, even with the cleaned/lubed projectiles and aftermarket (Volquartsen) extractor.

My level of success with resolving extraction problems has only come after polishing the breech.

 

[hmeier4799]

How did you polish the breech?

 

[Larks]

How did you polish the breech?

Nothing elaborate, a piece of dowel sized to fit the breech loosely, marked with the depth of the breech so as not got go into the barrel, fitted to a drill at low speed and dabbed with some Autosol metal polish.

 

[ralph7]

Nothing elaborate, a piece of dowel sized to fit the breech loosely, marked with the depth of the breech so as not got go into the barrel, fitted to a drill at low speed and dabbed with some Autosol metal polish.

I'm confused. If the breech is the area around the firing pin, why
would you need to mark a depth to the barrel unless you are talking about the chamber?

 

[Larks]

I'm confused. If the breech is the area around the firing pin, why
would you need to mark a depth to the barrel unless you are talking about the chamber?

It may be a terminology thing depending on where you are but I'm referring to the breech as the chamber inside the rear end of the barrel that holds the cartridge. You might just call it the chamber.

Anything "around the firing pin" I call the "Action".

 

[ralph7]

Gotcha, that's what I was thinking.

 

[Exaviator]

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]My level of success with resolving extraction problems has only come after polishing the breech."


The problem stems from the design of the .22 cartridge which is, that f[FONT=&quot]or a start, it is a rimfire, with the case the same diameter, and parallel to the driving band, and is crimped to the soft lead and wax coated bullet.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You will also notice that the case is shorter than the chamber and only the driving band contacts the barrel grooves. On firing, as the bullet moves forward, hot gas interacting with the feathered edge of the crimp, causes the edge to melt, depositing a ring of lead and carbon in the chamber.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Once the ring builds up it prevents successive rounds from seating properly and ends up cushioning the impact of the firing pin, causing the misfire.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is contamination ring is difficult to see without the use of a borescope, and whilst to the naked eye the barrel may look clean, unless steps are taken to remove the contamination with solvent, it will continue to build up over time and misfires will become more frequent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Polishing the breech/chamber has the same effect as using solvent.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The following photos demonstrate the problem:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) An apparently clean barrel. (1) Carbon ring in chamber - magnified. (2) Minute Carbon deposits - also magnified.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Larks]

Not actually relevant with the issue on this firearm Excavator - no misfires ever on this firearm, only extraction problems from new and it has been kept immaculately clean since new to try and counter that problem.

When I say immaculately clean I do mean immaculately clean, including minimising oiling when cleaning which in my experience as a RO is one of the biggest causes of failures with new shooters.

I polished the breech after a gunsmith recommended reaming it, as he has done on a number of S&W 22A's with great success. I wasn't keen to go that far immediately so went the polishing route to very very marginally open up the breech/chamber and to remove any manufacturing roughness that cleaning would not remove.

 

[Exaviator]

There is no doubt that chamber polishing certainly aids extraction. When I was CASS shooting, I polished the chambers of my shotgun to gain competition advantage, and all that was needed was a rearwards jerk to pop the used cases and gain precious time.



I haven't polished my M41 but like you, I also clean after every shoot, and in addition every 500 rounds or so I clean the chamber with solvent by blocking the end, standing the barrel vertical and allowing the solvent to soak for a few minutes before removing and further cleaning.


The end result is that regardless of which brand of ammunition I use, I suffer minimum misfire or ejection problems.


The bottom line is, whatever method works for you, stick with it

 

[Wombat1954]

As a hopeful acquirer of a 41, the above info will be invaluable. Thanks

 

[chief38]

I have never polished the chamber (Breech) of my M41, but I suspect that after shooting tens of thousands of rounds through it over 43 years, the bullets have done a pretty good job polishing it. When I experienced abnormal extraction/ejection issues with mine, I swapped out the Factory Extractor and installed a Volquartsen Extractor (cost about $12 bucks or so). That alone made the gun perform pretty much 100% problem free. Other than a very rare "dud" with CCI standard velocity ammo I never have any hang-ups or jams at all - seriously!

I never had to clean or polish my ammo and while I do clean every firearm after every shooting session, I just do a normal cleaning with a Bronze bore brush, Breakfree CLP or Rig #2 Oil, or similar and cotton patches. Since installing the Volquartsen Extractor I have not had any issues with extraction /ejection.

I'm glad that you found a solution, however for me, cleaning each round is more trouble than I would want to have to do. If you have not yet swapped out the Factory Extractor for a Volquartsen, I suggest doing so. It might eliminate the need for cleaning your ammo.

 

[Doc1500]

I know this is going to get a lot of comments , but ?
To be clear I've never shot a 41.
With that said, why would somebody spend that kind of money $$$ on a assumed quality competition target pistol and still have to massage it to make it work right ??
I totally understand some pistols can be modified to make them work smoother,
( ie , trigger pull, lowered recoil )... but this appears to be a (right out of the factory) Manufacturing defect. Plus there are so many posts of problems with the 41. If I were in the market to purchase a 22 Target Pistol it wouldn't be this one.
Is it just old school nostalgia ?
Please take me to school on this.

 

[chief38]

I know this is going to get a lot of comments , but ?
To be clear I've never shot a 41.
With that said, why would somebody spend that kind of money $$$ on a assumed quality competition target pistol and still have to massage it to make it work right ??
I totally understand some pistols can be modified to make them work smoother,
( ie , trigger pull, lowered recoil )... but this appears to be a (right out of the factory) Manufacturing defect. Plus there are so many posts of problems with the 41. If I were in the market to purchase a 22 Target Pistol it wouldn't be this one.
Is it just old school nostalgia ?
Please take me to school on this.

You are correct to some extent - the M41 is a very finicky pistol - sometimes. I have seen M41's that had to be tweaked 3 or 4 times before they are reliable and I've seen M41's that run perfect right out of the box. I've also seen an ocassional example that never runs quite right no matter what is done to them. As a former member of my Club's shooting team (no longer live there), those who have gotten their M41's to run well shoot very competently with them. A few unlucky owners have sold them in frustration.

I suspect that tolerances on this pistol are very critical for reliable performance and attention to detail is often overlooked by the Factory. Some of the reasons the pistol is so accurate is because of those tolerances - sort of a double edged sword. Over the last 2 decades the Factory has cheapened the M41 and uses inferior parts to build it now. The Extractors have always been a weak point and the magazines they use now are absolutely horrendous!
I am also no fan of the laminated grips or the new finish - but admittedly, those are cosmetic issues. Some don't mind.

Although my personal M41 has run pretty much 100% perfect since installing a Volquartsen Extractor years back, the better shooting gun would have been a High Standard (one of the target models like the Citation). The main reason I never bought one was my personal dislike for the "wrong" locations of the Magazine Release and the Slide Release. I don't like the mag release on the Butt and IMHO the slide release is for left handed shooters. That said, the High Standard was a more reliable shooting pistol out of the box and had a better trigger than the M41 - IMO. It is also highly accurate. Today High Standard is NOT the original Company and I'd not buy a current production pistol from them. Buying a used one would be the way to go but at least for me, that would require me shooting it first being that it would be vintage version.

As much as I have no love at all for Rugers, I recently shot my friends latest version of the Ruger 22 (with the new redesigned take down - FINALLY). Out of the box the trigger was terrible! After installing a Volquartsen trigger kit the pistol became incredible! IMHO not quite as accurate as the M41 (but close) however the trigger was just stellar! For about half the price of a new M41, the Ruger with the trigger kit was an excellent option.

BOTTOM LINE FOR ME:

If you have the patience to get a M41 running great or are just lucky to get one out of the box that they actually built right, it is a very accurate, easy shooting and reliable target quality 22 pistol. I like the look, the lines, the feel and the grip frame. If you get a stinker - it's a royal pain in the butt and can frustrate you to the point of selling it.

REASON PEOPLE ARE STILL BUYING THE M41:

Currently there are not really any high quality, accurate, good looking and reliable 22 target pistols made that are regular production guns. The M41 is SUPPOSED TO BE just that. I also suspect that the reason the M41 is still selling is because of it's long reputation for accuracy. Many owners who have already tweaked their M41's sometimes forget to mention the process of doing so. In my experience, once you do get the pistol running right, it usually remains that way.

 

[MJK-MOD-547]

I know this is going to get a lot of comments , but ?
To be clear I've never shot a 41.
With that said, why would somebody spend that kind of money $$$ on a assumed quality competition target pistol and still have to massage it to make it work right ??
I totally understand some pistols can be modified to make them work smoother,
( ie , trigger pull, lowered recoil )... but this appears to be a (right out of the factory) Manufacturing defect. Plus there are so many posts of problems with the 41. If I were in the market to purchase a 22 Target Pistol it wouldn't be this one.
Is it just old school nostalgia ?
Please take me to school on this.

Maybe you will have a different opinion of the 41 if you shoot one.

They are expensive but far superior.

How much does it cost to upgrade other brands for competition? The costs are right up there with the 41.

As for myself, if I bought a new 41 today and it didn't perform
I would spend the extra money and get it tuned.

Why, because I know I would have a "Contender" and one of the best pistols out there.

 

[chief38]

Many of the REAL old time Target Shooters have now retired, passed on or no longer shoot for what ever reason. I have seen quite a few vintage M41's for sale and they are usually priced way below new models. They are (IMHO and I am not bashing - just stating what I believe to be true) far superior to the new production models currently leaving the Factory (in Maine, not MA I do believe). The good thing is that most Target Shooters really took care of their Competition and Target guns and so many of the M41's are in great shape.

The only downsides of buying a used vintage M41 is that you won't get the Lifetime Warranty (if you are into that) and you will be restricted to buying vintage metal follower type magazines - the new production mag's rarely work in vintage models.

 

[Drm50]

A little jewelers file work on new manf. magazines and they will work perfect. Besides the old Bullseye shooters passing on, so has the old guard at S&W that put these guns together in the past.