Model 41 misfire problem

[Jes321]

Can anyone please offer advice?
I have a great 41 from late 70's. I bought it used so I don't know the last time the firing pin or spring was changed. But, I've put about 1000 rounds through it. I'd like to use it for matches, but it misfires about every 4th or 5th round. This is why I'm taking a stab at the problem being the pin or spring. [Yes, I've tried all kinds of ammo].
I've looked all over the internet but cannot find new parts to check out my theory.
- can anyone offer a suggestion as to what the problem might be? Am I correct in my assumption?
- does anyone know where I can get needed parts to make adjustment?
Many thanks all!

 

[armorer951]

Have you cleaned the gun meticulously inside and out? Sometimes, accumulated dirt and crud can contribute to the problem, either in the chamber area, bolt and boltface, and inside the firing pin cavity inside the bolt. (lots of crud accumulates here)
Before replacing parts, I would give it a thorough cleaning. Smith and Wesson, and the other parts places like Brownells, Midway and Numrich, will have the parts, if it turns out you need any.

Some elementary maintenance info here: Model 41 maintenance

 

[leinster lad]

Lots of discussion regarding the Model 41 in this forum. ( search is your friend )

Whenever attempting to diagnose an issue, you need to be very sure of the data that you are collecting.

You mentioned "misfires" every 4th or 5th round.

So, what exactly does it do ?

Does the hammer actually drop when the trigger is pulled ?
Does the firing pin actually contact the rim of the case ?
Is the slide fully closed when this "misfire" occurs ?


More details are needed.

I would be very doubtful that the firing pin or spring could be "faulty"

 

[andyo5]

This:

Model 41 maintenance

 

[Dave Lively]

Before you replace the firing pin and spring try cleaning them. The previous owner might have got carried away lubricating the gun 50 years ago and left a lot of oil in the firing pin channel that has gummed up over the decades.

You will need a punch to drive out a roll pin to remove the firing pin but it is easy to do.

ETA: Even if a replacement firing pin and spring are inexpensive I would recommend trying to clean the original ones first and see if that helps. When you start replacing parts without knowing they are the problem you add new variables which makes it hard to determine what the problem was. If the firing pin looks OK it probably is. The S&W 41 is not a striker fired gun. How hard the firing pin hits the spring is determined by the main spring, the firing pin spring just pushes the pin back after it has hit the case rim.

Also take a look at the cases. If all the cases have a light hit on the rim it could be a weak main spring. If just some of them do it is more likely something needs to be cleaned.

 

[kidcom]

Can anyone please offer advice?
I have a great 41 from late 70's. I bought it used so I don't know the last time the firing pin or spring was changed. But, I've put about 1000 rounds through it. I'd like to use it for matches, but it misfires about every 4th or 5th round. This is why I'm taking a stab at the problem being the pin or spring. [Yes, I've tried all kinds of ammo].
I've looked all over the internet but cannot find new parts to check out my theory.
- can anyone offer a suggestion as to what the problem might be? Am I correct in my assumption?
- does anyone know where I can get needed parts to make adjustment?
Many thanks all!

I would suggest that you remove the Bolt from the Slide assembly then remove the Firing Pin and Spring. Using a Qtip and small wire brush, thoroughly clean the Firing Pin channel. Also clean the Extractor assembly as well. Good luck....

 

[leinster lad]

I think the OP needs to determine exactly what is happening before charging at this like a bull in a china shop.

The term "misfire" is very loose and could mean many different things.

Slow down, take time, take charge.

 

[andyo5]

Here's an easy thing to try:
On the breechface, there is a round depression into which the rim of each round sits. This rim also surrounds the extractor. The rim fills with firing residue over time and can cause the round to move forwards. Take a tooth pick or similar tool and dig the crud out of that depression. This MAY be your problem. But if not, it needs to be done anyhow, is easy to do, and there is no risk or cost involved.

 

[leinster lad]

Still waiting for the OP to let us know *exactly* what the issue is and the circumstances that surround it.

Very hard to determine what is going on with so little info.

 

[Jes321]

Have you cleaned the gun meticulously inside and out? Sometimes, accumulated dirt and crud can contribute to the problem, either in the chamber area, bolt and boltface, and inside the firing pin cavity inside the bolt. (lots of crud accumulates here)
Before replacing parts, I would give it a thorough cleaning. Smith and Wesson, and the other parts places like Brownells, Midway and Numrich, will have the parts, if it turns out you need any.

Some elementary maintenance info here: Model 41 maintenance

Thank you. Yes, I am very meticulous in cleaning. And, I've checked those websites but all out of stock.

 

[Jes321]

Thanks. Used it again this evening. As explained, it will not discharge roughly the 4th or 5th round out of each mag I load for 5 shot strings. The hammer is falling. There is a small amount of dirt on the cartridge rim but barely a dimple. Sometimes I put the round back in and it will then fire. Rarely is the round a dud; I'm using good quality ammo.

 

[Jes321]

Thanks, I did that. Please see replies to each person trying to help me.

 

[Jes321]

Dave,
I did remove the firing pin and clean it out. Maybe you're right about the main spring. I can try that. Thanks.

 

[chief38]

I've seen mainsprings that were cut on a couple of M41's over the years. Apparently some owners either don't know there is a trigger pull adjustment (5 adjustable positions from approx. 2 - 3 lbs) or they just were not happy with the trigger pull at the lowest setting and they try to reduce it even more by cutting the main spring. That could be your issue OR although it is not a common occurrence on a used M41, your firing pin could be damaged, worn or modified. I'd suggest replacing both parts and see what happens.

When you get a misfire - what exactly are the markings on the rear of the round? Could you post a photo of a round that did not fire?

 

[Jes321]

Since my replies last night, I guess this one is for Chief38 since its most recent.
I us the cartridge again and then it fires. I throw any dud cartridges away at the range [rare to have a dud]. However, I can definitely say that those which don't fire on the first magazine do not have an imprint on the rim. Yes, there is a spot of dirt where the pin may have come close. No dimple in the rim.
But, now that I write there is something else. These cartridges that don't fire also don't typically eject when I open the action. That's why I can see the back of the cartridge so clearly; they're still in the barrel; partially ejected. Hmmm?

 

[leinster lad]

So, the firing pin is NOT HITTING the rim of the cartridge !!!

Which means that the hammer is either not being cocked (or getting half cocked) by the previous round (which means that it CANNOT fall, or the hammer is actually cocked but not falling (which means the SEAR is not releasing the hammer).

An easy way to tell if the hammer has actually fallen ( and I really really doubt that it is ) is to feel to amount of effort required to manually cycle the slide.

If the hammer HAS fallen, the rearward movement of the slide is what "cocks" the hammer.
There is a LOT more effort required to cycle the slide on a fallen hammer, that if the hammer is already cocked.


It is very possible that the trigger bar is not re-engaging with the sear when the trigger is released between shots.
i.e. the trigger is NOT moving forward far enough (when released) to allow the trigger bar to slide up and engage with the sear , OR for some reason the trigger bar is "sticking" down.

Please note that ALL of the disconnects on this pistol physically push the trigger bar DOWN and out of engagement with the sear.

The ONLY thing that pushes the trigger bar back up into engagement with the sear is than really little flat spring at the bottom of the trigger bar.
A bit of gunk, burr, whatever is all it takes to keep the trigger bar down and out of engagement with the sear.
It is a very weak little spring.


If you remove the right side grip, you will be able to see how the trigger bar moves up and engages with the little tab on the sear. You will also see how the magazine disconnect operates and how the slide disconnect operates.
You should also be able to see how the hammer disconnect works.
You should be able to see how the trigger bar re-engages with the sear when the trigger is released.

WITH AN EMPTY MAGAZINE AND EMPTY CHAMBER, cycle the slide ( hold down the slide release ) and see how the various actions move and affect the trigger bar.
You will need the EMPTY magazine inserted so that the mag disconnect is disengaged.

FEEL the difference in effort to cycle the slide when the hammer has actually dropped compared to when it is already cocked.

Hopefully, if you have been patient and payed attention to how the trigger/sear/hammer/slide all work in unison, put the gun back together, go back to the range and PATIENTLY try again.

If/when you have a "misfire" STOP !!!!!

keep the pistol pointing downrange.

drop the magazine.


MANUALLY (slowly) pull the slide back. FEEL the effort required. did the hammer actually drop ????

What was extracted from the chamber ? Was it the previous shots spent cartridge ? Was it an un-fired round ??

Again I will state that these are VERY simple machines that are VERY elegantly engineered.

Take your time to learn how your pistol actually works.

Slow down, Take Time and Take Charge.

 

[Dave Lively]

These cartridges that don't fire also don't typically eject when I open the action. That's why I can see the back of the cartridge so clearly; they're still in the barrel; partially ejected. Hmmm?

That sounds like the slide is not fully returning to battery. If that happened the ejector would not slide over the rim and the firing pin would be too far away to get a good hit on the case.

I have never heard of that but would start by checking the recoil spring. Some people replace the stock spring with a weaker one so the gun will work better with certain brands of standard velocity ammo. That is just a guess but recoil springs are inexpensive.

 

[armorer951]

Sounds a bit redundant, but since you "bought it used" you should also check your recoil spring to make sure it's not cut, (original OEM) and, if it has an open end, that the spring has been installed correctly.

Wolff replacement springs do not have a closed winding at each end, and many owners cut their OEM recoil springs, which are closed at each end, to accommodate the ammo of their choice....herin lies the problem.

If the "open" end, or cut end of the recoil spring is placed forward, or toward the muzzle end of the gun, it will cause serious reliability issues (and possible damage) like you are describing. Check to see whether or not your recoil spring has been cut, or, it has an "open" end at one end, and if it does, place this open or cut end to the rear when re-assembling the slide. If a cut OEM or open ended Wolff spring is used, this cut end must be placed to the rear.....with the open end place into the spring cavity in the frame.


These are not model 41 springs, but will serve to illustrate the "closed" and "open" ends. The closed end needs to be at the front of the giude rod. The open coil, if you have one, should be at the rear.

 

[leinster lad]

That sounds like the slide is not fully returning to battery. .

If the slide did not return to battery, the slide disconnect would have pushed the trigger bar out of engagement with the sear.

The hammer would not fall when the trigger is squeezed.

The OP needs to get back to us with some quality observations.

 

[Jes321]

Thank you all guys. I just got back from range and it didn't misfire through 90 rounds; I shot 3 NRA galleries.
I took some advice concerning the mainspring [recoil spring]. It is closed. It has not been cut. However, it is likely weak. Since I have not been able to find parts. I carefully stretched this spring a bit longer. And, it seems to have works albeit temporarily. And, I don't have confidence using it in a match. So, I'm still looking for replacement parts if anyone out there has a place that isn't sold out.

Thanks all!!!

 

[Jes321]

I also want to follow up to let everyone know I found this company, Wolff Gunsprings.
https://www.gunsprings.com/
This seems to be a very comprehensive site and I found what I needed.

 

[Dave Lively]

I also want to follow up to let everyone know I found this company, Wolff Gunsprings.
https://www.gunsprings.com/
This seems to be a very comprehensive site and I found what I needed.

If you are looking for a full power spring consider getting a factory replacement spring at some point. I bought mine directly from S&W earlier this year but cannot find them on their website now. Brownells lists them as out of stock.

If the Wolff spring works and you are careful there is no reason to buy a factory spring. But it is so easy to put the Wolff spring in backwards and jam up the gun I felt spending a few dollars on the factory spring was a good deal.

There is only one weight of factory spring so if you need something lighter Wolff is your only choice.

 

[leinster lad]

Why the heck is the discussion continuing to focus on the recoil spring ??

The recoil spring has seriously nothing to do with the described problem and continuing to talk about it is just confusing the issue !

In fact, a stronger spring will make the issue worse !!

I have offered quality advice which if followed will solve the problem.

I could offer my opinion as to why it is not being discussed or followed, but that would cause the mods to ban me..

I'm done

 

[Dave Lively]

Why the heck is the discussion continuing to focus on the recoil spring ??

The recoil spring has seriously nothing to do with the described problem and continuing to talk about it is just confusing the issue !

In fact, a stronger spring will make the issue worse !!

I have offered quality advice which if followed will solve the problem.

The OP is replacing the spring so mentioning that the factory spring is finished on both ends is worth repeating.

Most of your advice assumed the OP does not know the difference between pulling the trigger and having nothing happen and a misfire. I doubt anyone would call that a misfire.

S&W 41s can be finicky and not run reliably for several different reasons. Without looking at the gun I would not be so certain you correctly diagnosed the problem. Nobody likes being ignored but there is no need to take it personally. To the OP we are both just random angry old men on the internet giving free advice. There is no reason we should expect anyone to hang on our every word.

 

[Jes321]

The Wolff springs actually come in a set of 3 with different weights [strengths] plus firing pin springs. I'll try it out. And, since my gun has been operating properly since I stretched the spring a bit, it seems logical. Seems like a simple fix before I attempt the advice [while thorough] from Leinster Lad which is very complex and involved. I'm not even sure I'd be able to do all he suggests.