Model 41 trigger suddenly frozen

[RShaw]

Hi All,
A question... I have a Model 41 built in 1980 which has shot very well for the last 18 months since I bought it with no problems. Now yesterday, with 5 rounds in the mag, and 1 in the chamber, the trigger does not move at all. After emptying the gun, and trying again, the gun fires, but then the trigger freezes up again. Sometimes it fires, sometimes not.

I am very careful with maintenance; chamber, bore and breech are cleaned carefully after every trip to the range. No residue is to be seen in the firing pin area or the breech. Movement of the slide and firing pin is unobstructed. This gun has not been
dry-fired by me, except yesterday 2 or 3 times in an attempt to see if the trigger moves.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[USBP SW]

I'm not sure what you mean by frozen. Does the trigger travel to the stop freely? The pistol has a disconnect, a bar that travels under the grip. The bar has to ride up and engage the sear for the pistol to fire. If it gets dirty or there's a problem with the spring or engagement, the pistol will not fire. It would be a good thing to check.

Regards, Steve

 

[Squarebutt]

Also check that the trigger stop hasn't walked out and blocked trigger travel.

 

[Barrie]

How many rounds are on the springs in this pistol. I suspect a weak spring or possibly broken spring. Try pulling the grips off to see if dirt has jammed it up behind them as well.

 

[RShaw]

Hi All,
Many thanks for your replies. What I mean by "frozen trigger" is that the trigger does not move at all. When this happens the trigger does not travel to the trigger stop. However, it does fire sometimes, and then again the trigger freezes.

I will take off the grips and check for the function of the disconnect. It's true that I have never taken the grips off this gun. If there were a problem with the spring, or if the spring were broken, I would think the trigger would remain motionless, rather than firing every so often. Anyway, I will check for sure and report back.

I have no idea how many rounds have been fired on the present set of springs. I bought the gun second hand a year and a half ago, and have only replaced the recoil spring. I myself have fired about 1000 rounds- all with no trigger problems like this.

Anyway, I'm learning... and I appreciate your help!!
Thanks again

 

[Camster]

Sounds like you're doing the typical cleaning that all of us do, which has nothing to do with a trigger that appears to have gummed up and seized.

 

[RShaw]

Well, I took off the grips and checked as advised above; the entire mechanism was quite dirty, although the trigger was moving and the parts did not seem to be locked in place or restricted in their movement.
(see photo....before cleaning- tiny metal shavings there...)

The small spring visible in the recess just behind the trigger, (trigger bar spring) appears to be in good shape. So I cleaned the entire area first with solvent, then wiped the excess off and put in a very thin coat of oil (Ballistol) and reassembled the gun.
No parts were removed; I don't have the knowhow or the tools

I also cleaned the breech and chamber very well.... so tomorrow I'll go to the range and give her another go.

Thanks for the advice! I'll write a short update tomorrow....

 

[USBP SW]

Check the trigger return spring as well but I suspect that cleaning the trigger bar etc. might do the trick. Let us know how it works out.

Steve

 

[RShaw]

Check the trigger return spring as well but I suspect that cleaning the trigger bar etc. might do the trick. Let us know how it works out.
Steve

I hate to show my ignorance, but where is the trigger return spring? Or is this the same part as the trigger bar spring? By trigger bar spring, I mean the visible spring in the photo above, just to the right of the S-shaped trigger bar, with two arms at almost right angles to each other. It allows the trigger to return to its forward position after being pulled to fire the gun.
Thanks.

 

[kidcom]

No parts were removed; I don't have the know how or the tools

You really don't need a lot of experience. The following URLs will guide you threw the process. I've dissassembled and reassembled all of my Model 41s & 46s cleaning every part. When finished and reassembled, they function almost like a new pistol. Well worth the effort.

Album Archive - S&W Model 41 Disassembly

Album Archive - S&W Model 41 Assembly

 

[RShaw]

Hi Kidcom,
Many thanks for these URL's- I'll have to obtain the tools and give these a try I am a bit hesitant to be honest.....

Hi All,
In the meantime, after the cleaning steps mentioned in earlier posts, At the range this morning, the gun fired significantly better, but there were still instances where the trigger was "stuck." I shot 30-40 rounds, the last 5 rounds shot successfully one after the other.... looking a lot better than before.... It feels sometimes that the trigger pull is harder than earlier... Is there any way to adjust the trigger pull? BTW, I have fired ca 2000 rounds though this gun. No idea how many in total since it was built (1980).

I also have a friend who has a compressor- could well be that dirt or particles behind the bar are causing the problems?

Next step is to be sure the trigger stop is not turned out too far. I think not, since the gun does fire a lot better now. So just now I have turned the trigger stop 1/3 turn clockwise (to increase trigger travel- opposite from turning it out too far and blocking the trigger) After dry firing 10 times with an empty casing in the chamber, on each of two magazines, only once could I not dry-fire the gun out of 20 tries. Trigger pull now feels normal.

So now I will try the gun again later this week. I am now using an empty case in the chamber to release the hammer and remove the hammer spring tension. Up until now, I have not been doing that.

Many thanks for your time and input

 

[USBP SW]

You should have consistency all the time, especially with a competition pistol. Nothing destroys concentration more than wondering if your next shot will work. Be certain that when you fire a round and release the trigger for your next shot that you have resistance. This indicates that your trigger bar and sear are functioning properly. If this doesn't function properly then you may have problems with the sear engagement. You would see how this functions when the grips are removed.

 

[RShaw]

Yes I DO need consistency... almost there!!
I have to correct myself with an earlier comment; if and when the gun does not fire, the trigger CAN be pulled a very short distance (2-3 mm) back to the trigger stop. But then it goes no further, even with high finger pressure. At the range today I shot 20 rounds, 18 out 20 OK. After emptying the gun and trying again, these 2 rounds did fire. Trigger pull seems to be inconsistent... sometimes lighter pressure... sometimes heavier pressure needed to fire.

Perhaps there is still dirt under the trigger bar.... Not sure what else to do (before going to the local gunsmith) It's better than it was before though. I appreciate any additional comments from the experts here!

Thanks a lot!

 

[USBP SW]

I saw an issue similar to yours once before, in that instance the trigger did not return far enough to 're-engage the sear. A little tweaking on the engagement points and it was fine thereafter. You can check the operation of the pistol using snap caps or empty casings (I don't dry fire rimfires without something in the chamber). When you dry fire, hold the trigger to the rear and chamber another snap cap, make sure the slide is completely closed. Release the trigger and you should feel the mechanism 're-engage for the next trigger pull, if it doesn't you have a problem.

 

[RShaw]

I saw an issue similar to yours once before, in that instance the trigger did not return far enough to 're-engage the sear. A little tweaking on the engagement points and it was fine thereafter. You can check the operation of the pistol using snap caps or empty casings (I don't dry fire rimfires without something in the chamber). When you dry fire, hold the trigger to the rear and chamber another snap cap, make sure the slide is completely closed. Release the trigger and you should feel the mechanism 're-engage for the next trigger pull, if it doesn't you have a problem.

Ahh Thank you!
As far as I know, the trigger does return far enough to re-engage the sear... but I will watch for this the next time I have the gun out. For now I use empty casings for dryfiring.

I also remove the tension on the hammer spring by pulling the slide back 2-3 mm to allow the hammer to fall without having the firing pin strike the chamber mouth.

 

[leinster lad]

Simple machines.

Open it up and learn how the trigger actually works.

You will then find your answer.

Clue...

The trigger bar ONLY engages with the tab on the sear because of the very small amount of force applied by the trigger bar spring.

The magazine disconnector physically pushes the trigger bar out of engagement.

The fully or partially fallen hammer physically pushes the trigger bar out of engagement.

A partially closed slide physically pushes the trigger bar out of engagement.


With the barrel and slide removed, and an empty magazine inserted, full trigger operation can occur.

Operating the trigger in this state will cause the hammer to fall.

Operating the trigger / hammer this way will cause no damage as there is no slide, barrel or firing pin involved ( they were removed previously )

Re-cock hammer fully with your thumb. Make sure to cock fully.

There is a partially cocked hammer position which cannot be released by the trigger, for safety reasons.

Hammer must be in the fully cocked position to reinstall the slide.

Removing the grips will allow full view of what actually happens when the trigger is pulled. ( it all happens on the right hand side of the pistol )


ps.
The safety actually physically BLOCKS the sear from moving.
This could "feel" like a frozen trigger.
Make sure the safety is not coming on by itself at times.
(this is unlikely, as the M41 safeties are normally VERY tight to move )

 

[Barrie]

Make sure your safety is oiled as it could be sticking ever so slightly giving you these problems. It does not take that much oil to lube it correctly but move it back and forth when you oil it to get the oil all the way thru it.

 

[RShaw]

Many thanks Leinster lad and Barry,
I will for sure try out these suggestions
I had always thought that the safety onlgy blocks the slide from moving. Actually, I never use the safety at all, and so do not normally operate it. These sudden problems without warning could be explained by a sticky safety as you describe it above.... I'll have a look.
Thanks you! I'll let you know what happens...

 

[Camster]

The trigger pivot pin should slide back and forth within the frame without much effort.It's externally obvious which one it is.
I still think that you have a gum issue.Your varying trigger pull weight has nothing to do with adjusting the trigger pull spring.
In recent years, I repaired a friend's HS that had a "frozen trigger" Nothing wrong with the parts or adjustments.It had simply gummed up from sitting.
Your gun is 37 years old.Lube could certainly have gummed up, and sometimes just a little activation of the parts from shooting the gun,can put the parts into lockup mode. ( I see that in my own non gun business, where I work on mechanical cash registers. A little use can take sluggish parts and quickly put them into a frozen state.)

 

[nedlate]

I bought a used model 41 and had the same issues as you-sometimes the gun would not fire, pulling the trigger I would feel no movement, then sometimes it would fire a few rounds.

I discovered the trigger stop was adjusted out too far-right at the edge of function. I screwed it in a little bit and the trigger was fine after that.
Ed