Model 617 Question

[m4bgringo]

I am getting a lot of residue under the top strap and around the forcing cone. Tried taking some pictures. Not sure if it is lead, or simply powder residue. How do you check timing? A rod down the barrel of the proper diameter and see if it slides cleanly into each chamber on the cylinder?

 

[Macinaw]

After Steel Challenge mine looks the same way. I think it's just the nature of the beast. I use a brass brush to clean it away. Mac

 

[treerat]

from my experience any black is fine as its just powder or lube, but the grey is lead and it is because its shaveing lead on one or more chambers!

 

[David Sinko]

Does anybody have a .22 revolver that does NOT do this to some extent? My 617-1 does it, my 63 did it and now my 43C does it, both lead and powder fouling. They are accurate and function properly so I do not worry about it.

Dave Sinko

 

[one eye joe]

IMHO, that condition is "normal" for a .22 revolver. Lube from .22 ammo increases the stickiness of powder residue. Spitting would be indicative of a problem. If the revolver is accurate and not spitting lead shavings, you are good to go.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Does anybody have a .22 revolver that does NOT do this to some extent? My 617-1 does it, my 63 did it and now my 43C does it, both lead and powder fouling. They are accurate and function properly so I do not worry about it.

Dave Sinko

Ditto my 617 and 63.

 

[steamloco76]

I don't have a single .22 LR revolver- S&W, Ruger, Taurus or H&R that does not blast some lead and powder onto the top strap and all over the cylinder face. They do it less with expensive match grade ammo, however they still do it. .22 revolvers are messy beasts!

 

[v-13]

I have a 617-6, that does the same thing. Now the problem is intermitent FTF's even with more expensive ammo. Sent it in to S&W to have the problem corrected. Was told by CS that it might be possible end shake. BRAND NEW gun!!!!! Hopefully they will permanently fix the problem so my faith in S&W revolvers can be restored.

 

[jspick]

I have a 617 6", 617 4", 17-3, K22, and a Ruger single six. They all do that. I have never had a 22 revolver that didn't build up powder and some lead residue.

Timing- is the cylinder latch in the cylinder notch before the hammer falls in double action and is the cylinder latch in the notch before the hammer comes to full cocking poistion. If so Timing is OK.

If not and if you are inclined to do so take the side plate off and disassemble the gun and clean the slot the hand goes in and clean the hand. Just such a cleaning has fixed all of my timing problems.

There are other "real" timing issues but I have nver had any.

John

 

[5Wire]

Thin wood coffee stirrer stick with some bore paste. A lead remover cloth strip twisted to "floss" the area. A small square of lead remover cloth surrounding a small brass scraper tool or a carefully wielded flat-blade screwdriver. Don't use the lead remover or bore paste on blued surfaces.

Once fouling is removed, I've found using MPro7 for a final cleaning and then a dry Teflon lubricant makes the next cleaning quicker and easier each time. Elmer's Slide-All, or similar. In fact, I use the combination in all the hot places. Teflon tends to bond with metal when heated, so eventually crud just doesn't adhere as much if at all.

Here's a 629 cone area:

And a 617P, no cone view, but cylinder face is visible.

 

[jspick]

Elmer's slide-all.. I learned something new. I did not know Elmer Keith made that item! He was sure a smart guy!

John

 

[one eye joe]

5wire, You did a DAMN FINE JOB cleanin' that 617. I'm adoptin' some of your method. Never too old to learn a new trick........

 

[m4bgringo]

Thanks guys. The gun is accurate so I assume timing is ok. Will check the items noted above to make sure. I am using the cheapest ammo possible, no match-grade stuff here!

 

[one eye joe]

Thanks guys. The gun is accurate so I assume timing is ok. Will check the items noted above to make sure. I am using the cheapest ammo possible, no match-grade stuff here!

Try some of the bulk, copper washed ammo (550 round milk carton stuff--I forget the brand BUT it might be Federal). IIRC, it's HP. It shot very well in my Ruger Mk II and my 617--was accurate and a bit cleaner than plain wax lubed lead, and goes on sale @ Walmart..........

 

[pctech]

Guys,

I too have a recent production 617 (Bought new in Dec 2010) that does the same thing as the original posters gun. Major lead/powder build up around the forcing cone, and on the top strap.

I hate the clean up, but what makes the problem worse is the fact that I *sometimes* get hit in the face with small bits of lead/powder after shooting only a few cylinders through the gun. This has happened since new, and gets worse as more and more crud builds up during a range session. The crud is not easy to clean off, so it's hard to do anything about the build up while at the range. The gun is accurate, and I can't detect any timing problems.

I suspect to correct the problem the forcing cone will need to be re-cut (it's probably not cut at the proper angle, creating most of the leading,just a guess on my part ) and the barrel to cylinder gap evened out. (it's .007 on one side, and .009 on the other, if i remember correctly. i'd have to get out the feeler gauges to verify those numbers)

I've been debating on sending the gun back to the factory to try and remedy this problem, but with all of the current quality control issues (some of which I've experienced personally) I'm a bit afraid it will come back in worse condition than it is right now.


I know many of you are saying that this type of thing is 100% normal for .22lr revolvers, but I just bought one of the new Ruger SP101 .22lr revolvers several months ago, and I can shoot hundreds of rounds through it without ANY significant lead or powder build up on the forcing cone or top strap. Based on this, I KNOW the issue with my 617 can be corrected. I just don't know if S&W is WILLING or CAPABLE to do it, at this point in time.

James

 

[5Wire]

Twenty two ammo is generally pretty dirty and the photos in the original post don't seem unusual to me, either. In fact, I don't see much of any fouling to the left of the forcing cone—don't know about the right—which are the two places I'd expect to to foul more if the cylinder lockup weren't right.

The fouling at and above the forcing cone, on the top strap looks like what I'd expect to find on any revolver. Any leading fouling on a twenty two represents a proportionately higher percentage of the projectile than from other calibers just because the bullets are smaller. And leading begets leading. More splatter

S&W will no doubt take a look at the gun if you contact their Customer Service. I'd give it a good cleaning first and totally avoid heavy fluid lubrication in that area.

Did you by the 617 new, used? How about the Ruger?

 

[m4bgringo]

I bought my 617 used. I was getting hit once in awhile in the face from splatter, never experienced that on any of my other revolvers.

I cleaned this thing spotless, will see how many rounds it takes to make a mess of it again.

 

[5Wire]

I bought my 617 used. I was getting hit once in awhile in the face from splatter, never experienced that on any of my other revolvers.

I cleaned this thing spotless, will see how many rounds it takes to make a mess of it again.

Splatter happens. Good plan.

 

[pctech]

5Wire,

Both my 617 and Ruger SP01 were brand new. No modifications made to either of them.

After looking at the orignal posters pictures, my 617 actually shows considerably more fouling after only a few hundred rounds. And, most of it does build up to the right and left of the forcing cone.

I'll try to take some pictures after the next range trip.

James

 

[jspick]

My 617 4" leads up pretty fast and my 617 6" doesn't lead up at all.
I have looked the 4" over pretty well inside and out and can't tell why the 4" barrel leads up. It is just something that some 22's do and some don't.
I am going to shoot some of those bore lapping bullets in it when the weather warms up some and see if that helps.

I have a 22 Chipmunk that I bought 25 years ago to start my boys on. It leads up badly. I will try some of those lapping bullets in it to see if that helps.

Interesting thing is both the 617 4" and the chipmunk are very accurate.

John

 

[pctech]

jspick,

Just to clarify, the barrel (bore) itself on my 617 doesn't really generate any leading, just the forcing cone area... I can run a wet patch or two through the barrel and it will be perfectly clean, all except the huge amount of lead/powder/crud and build up around the forcing cone.

I don't see how lapping bullets would help in my case, but you may be dealing with a bit different situation.

Thanks for the input!

James

 

[5Wire]

5Wire,

Both my 617 and Ruger SP01 were brand new. No modifications made to either of them.

After looking at the orignal posters pictures, my 617 actually shows considerably more fouling after only a few hundred rounds. And, most of it does build up to the right and left of the forcing cone.

I'll try to take some pictures after the next range trip.

James

Interesting, I'd like to see the pix. You can email S&W Quality Assurance with the photos. I've done that myself. They have always responded favorably in my experience. [email protected].

 

[beach elvis]

Coincidence.
Cleaning my 4" 617 today, I noticed the same condition in the same place. I either never noticed before (doubtful, I was taught how to detail-clean S&W's by a fine gunsmith) or it's been long enough between cleanings that it's there now.

I love that not surprisingly, the Forum has the answers about what to do about it. This place rocks!

 

[jspick]

James,

Yea, I know what you are talking about. I guess I was just thinking outloud with my fingers again!

John

 

[one eye joe]

Pctech, outta curiosity and not meaning to hi-jack the thread, how do you compare the trigger pull on your SP-101 to your 617 ? ? ?

 

[pctech]

one eye joe,

The quality of the trigger pull is one area where there is no comparison. S&W wins hands down.

The Ruger trigger is improving with use, but it will never be the quality of the S&W. I may try some lighter weight springs at some point, but for now I'm going to let it continue smoothing out on its own.

James

 

[one eye joe]

one eye joe,

The quality of the trigger pull is one area where there is no comparison. S&W wins hands down.

The Ruger trigger is improving with use, but it will never be the quality of the S&W. I may try some lighter weight springs at some point, but for now I'm going to let it continue smoothing out on its own.

James

Thanks for the reply, James. I presumed this would be the case, but I wondered if the new DA Rugers were any better than the older ones. About 30 years ago I purchased a 2 3/4" Speed Six as a tackle box/camping revolver for fishing trips in Maine (wanting to spare one of my Colts or S&Ws the abuse). It was built like a tank and went bang each and every time, but I just could not fall in love with it--primarily because of the trigger. I ended up selling it to a friend in Maine on one of those trips. He still has it.....

 

[Lefever]

Bought a new 4" 617 today so I'll have a .22 to shoot open sights. I have 6" which I'm going to scope. The 6" has never leaded up after hundreds of rounds but my new 4" leaded up so badly after less than 100 rounds that the bullets were key holing and the group was so large that it wasn't possible to keep all shots on an 8x10 piece of paper at 15 yds. Ammo was Rem. Bulk pack. Gave it a good cleaning tonite and will try again tomorrow with Win. Super X, CCI Velocitor and CCI standard velocity. Is it likely the better ammo will help? Also have a Super Single 6, Ruger Mark II and a .22 mag 14" Contender barrel. Never a problem before. Thanks for any advise or input.
Bob

 

[one eye joe]

If that condition persists, I would call S&W for a shipping label and return the gun for service. DON'T clean it and send them the target also. That level of performance is totally unacceptable...

 

[jspick]

I have the same problem with my 4" 617.
I am going to fire lap the bore.
I have several other 22's handguns and they don't have that problem.

John