Model 64 fixed sight issues
- Thread starter tyger2
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scooter123
Member
It depends. It depends on the distance that it's shooting 2 inches left at and it depends on the vintage of your model 64.
If it's shooting 2 inches left at 25 yards I wouldn't worry about it, I'd just aim 2 inches to the right. The simple truth is that for an error this small it's very difficult to try and "regulate" the sights with any precision. If it's 2 inches at 5 or 7 yards things get easier because you can move the barrel more and get it closer without beating the gun up too much.
BTW, there are 2 ways to regulate the sighting on a fixed sight revolver.
Method one is to rotate the barrel slightly to move the front sight in a direction opposite to the direction the group needs to be move. The challenge that is presented by using this method is that there is not a lot of the barrel to frame mount visible when they are enclosed in a frame wrench and vise block so it's pretty much a blind operation. That can mean many trips from the workbench to the range to get the sights "good enough". BTW, if you want perfection using this method it would be best if you own your own tools and firing range. Because you'll want that bench and vise right at the firing line.
The second method for regulating the sights is the method that will be required for an earlier pinned barrel revolver. That is to actually bend the frame slightly to regulate the sighting. With this method you clamp the frame in a vise using fitted frame blocks and then smack the barrel with a babbit alloy hammer. BTW, Babbit alloy is a mix of lead and tin and cast into a hammer makes for a heavy non marring hammer. As you might imagine it takes someone with a well calibrated sense to smack the barrel with enough force to produce the right amount of bend in the frame. When the sighting gets really close you also run into the "wall" created by springback in the steel. If your in the springback zone the only way to bend the frame is to first overbend it and then come back by the amount needed to regulate the sights. Do this too often and the likely result is a cracked frame.
Which is why I suggested leaving yours alone if your 2 inch error is occuring way out at 25 yards. The simple truth is that trying to inch a barrel or bend a frame when the sighting is this close is more a matter of luck than skill. That means going back over and over until you get lucky or fed up with the process.
If it's shooting 2 inches left at 25 yards I wouldn't worry about it, I'd just aim 2 inches to the right. The simple truth is that for an error this small it's very difficult to try and "regulate" the sights with any precision. If it's 2 inches at 5 or 7 yards things get easier because you can move the barrel more and get it closer without beating the gun up too much.
BTW, there are 2 ways to regulate the sighting on a fixed sight revolver.
Method one is to rotate the barrel slightly to move the front sight in a direction opposite to the direction the group needs to be move. The challenge that is presented by using this method is that there is not a lot of the barrel to frame mount visible when they are enclosed in a frame wrench and vise block so it's pretty much a blind operation. That can mean many trips from the workbench to the range to get the sights "good enough". BTW, if you want perfection using this method it would be best if you own your own tools and firing range. Because you'll want that bench and vise right at the firing line.
The second method for regulating the sights is the method that will be required for an earlier pinned barrel revolver. That is to actually bend the frame slightly to regulate the sighting. With this method you clamp the frame in a vise using fitted frame blocks and then smack the barrel with a babbit alloy hammer. BTW, Babbit alloy is a mix of lead and tin and cast into a hammer makes for a heavy non marring hammer. As you might imagine it takes someone with a well calibrated sense to smack the barrel with enough force to produce the right amount of bend in the frame. When the sighting gets really close you also run into the "wall" created by springback in the steel. If your in the springback zone the only way to bend the frame is to first overbend it and then come back by the amount needed to regulate the sights. Do this too often and the likely result is a cracked frame.
Which is why I suggested leaving yours alone if your 2 inch error is occuring way out at 25 yards. The simple truth is that trying to inch a barrel or bend a frame when the sighting is this close is more a matter of luck than skill. That means going back over and over until you get lucky or fed up with the process.
Tyrod
Member
If you had a pinned in sight, couldn't an offset sight be machined from raw stock. Excuse the crudeness of the pic, I'm no artist. Sights could be machined with varying amounts of offset to fix different windage POIs.
For that matter, there is plenty of meat on K frames and larger to cut the entire "cast on" front sight off and woodruff cut a slot to accomodate a pinned in sight.
For that matter, there is plenty of meat on K frames and larger to cut the entire "cast on" front sight off and woodruff cut a slot to accomodate a pinned in sight.
OFT II
US Veteran
I had an old M&P that shot about three inches left at 25 yards. Since the gun was a good shooter with wear I took a small flat file and opened up the right side of the rear sight slightly which put it spot on at 25 yards.
BubbaBlades
Member
I have used the rear sight file method that OFT II describes many times with great success. If you have a fixed-sight gun that is shooting low, you can also file down the front sight until your POA and POI match. If you have a high shooting fixed-sight gun with a non-removable front sight, the fix is a little more difficult. My Model 64 was shooting 3" high at 50'. A little stainless welding and some careful file work have it shooting to POA/POI with my ammo of choice. Speaking of ammo, I have had numerous guns that changed their vertical and/or horizontal POI by 1", 2" or more depending on the shooting distance, bullet weight and type of ammo used.
Mark
Mark
I've had the babbit used before & it fixed the problem, seems barbaric but it's not & it's a well-recognized method for correcting a windage offset in a fixed-sight Smith revolver.
I've also used the sight filing method.
I personally would not accept the situation as it is, I would not aim 2 inches in the opposite direction.
Any competent gunsmith should be able to use the babbit & that's what I'd try first.
May take a couple sessions followed by trips to the range to confirm, but it's easy, inexpensive, and effective.
This is all assuming, of course, that the problem isn't you.
Denis
I've also used the sight filing method.
I personally would not accept the situation as it is, I would not aim 2 inches in the opposite direction.
Any competent gunsmith should be able to use the babbit & that's what I'd try first.
May take a couple sessions followed by trips to the range to confirm, but it's easy, inexpensive, and effective.
This is all assuming, of course, that the problem isn't you.
Denis
OFT II
US Veteran
Just take that babbit bar to the range and tweak your sights there. You'll have everybody's attention.
Alk8944
US Veteran
There is no guesswork involved in bending a frame, and it can be measured. To determine how much movement is needed think only of "How far would I have to move an adjustable sight?" This is determined by dividing the distance to the target by the sight radius of the revolver. Example: Distance to target 25 yards = 900", divided by sight radius of 6" (aprox. for 4" barrel) = 150 divided by 1000 =.150". This is the distance on the target that a .001" sight movement will result in. if you want to need to move POI 2", then 2/.150 = .013" that the sight needs to be moved.
Remember that it makes no difference whether the front or rear sight is moved. The only thing that is difficult is setting up a measurement method. Otherwise you have to do it by trial and error.
PLEASE, DO NOT FILE SIGHTS, at least for windage. I don't care how many say you have done this! Since what you are moving is the center of the sight you have to remove twice as much metal as if the work is done correctly! Using the above example you would have to remove .026" from the sight, front, back, or collectively. That is 1/5 the width of a 1/8" sight, and 1/4 the width of a 1/10" sight. What you end up with is a mutilated gun and sights if grossly mis-matched widths!
tyger2,
You did not say what ammunition/bullet weight you are using that is shooting off-center! For some reason no one saw fit to even consider this as possibly the problem! This is another reason to not worry about such a small variation. Many people do not seem to understand that revolvers/handguns are sensitive to the ammunition being used. Different bullet weights will not only cause a change in elevation, but they will often cause POI to shift right or left also. If you get the gun shooting center with 125 gr. bullets by whatever method, and then you decide to use 158 gr. bullets and the POI moves 3" the other way then what are you going to do about that?????
If you are talking about 2" @ 7 yds, then consider doing something about it. If it is 2" @ 25 yds, then leave well enough alone!
I have been doing this a lot of years, and have adjusted POI on many revolvers by bending the frame. It may surprise many on the forum that I am far more likely to adjust the frame on a revolver with adjustable sights than I am to adjust a fixed-sight revolver. The reason is fixed-sight guns are regulated at the factory to get them close to center, adjustable-sighted are not, depending on the adjustable sight being adjusted by the user. Often you will see posts about "My rear sight is all the way to the right (or left)." I like the rear sight to be centered when the sights are adjusted, not having the rear blade all the way one way or the other.
That's what I do. My 64 isn't off the mark, but my 10 is a couple inches off @ 7 to 10 yards. It shoots tighter groups than my 64, however, so I don't want to mess with it. I just compensate.
Also, my Ruger P95 was shooting to the left, but the sights were too hard to adjust (too tight) so I left them and compensated. NOW, however, the gun shoots dead on. So was it the gun that improved? Or ME? I suspect the latter. I don't change anything until I account for the most variable of all the variables - the shooter. Best Wishes.
scooter123
Member
Two inches at 15 yards is in the region where you'll have to make the decision on whether to correct the sighting. As you've see the officially endorsed method for regulating your sights is by bending the frame. Personally, I'd leave it alone and aim to the right. I'm not really fond of the idea of bending the frame on a revolver even if it's been the accepted method for regulating the sights for over 100 years.
I'll also point out that Ald8944 is 100% correct in stating that different ammunitions can cause changes in windage as well as elevation. My normal range choice in 38 spl. is American Eagle 130 gn. FMJ and I have one revolver equipped with a reflex sight zeroed in for this load at 35 yards. Any time I stray from that particular load I've found that I not only have to correct for changes in elevation but windage as well.
I'll also point out that Ald8944 is 100% correct in stating that different ammunitions can cause changes in windage as well as elevation. My normal range choice in 38 spl. is American Eagle 130 gn. FMJ and I have one revolver equipped with a reflex sight zeroed in for this load at 35 yards. Any time I stray from that particular load I've found that I not only have to correct for changes in elevation but windage as well.
2 left at 15 would be close to 3-4 at 25.
Your gun, but I would not accept that.
It's such an easy matter to correct, why would you?
My 64 was issued to me in July of 1980. It was carried on & off duty till we got the Glocks in '88, at which time I bought it.
During that period, if it'd been even 2 inches off at 25, much less 4, it would not have been carried. End of story.
Removed from service till the problem (and sight) was corrected.
Aiming 2-4 inches right may be acceptable to you in playing around on the range, but even there it wouldn't be for me.
On a carry gun (which may not be applicable to you) or a home defense gun, foolish to count on the time or the memory under stress to remember to "just aim right".
I had a customized fixed-sight .32 Mag revolver that shot one inch left at 7 yards. At 25 it was a full four inches left.
Not acceptable. It got corrected.
I may be more demanding than many on this issue, but my guns either come zeroed for windage or get zeroed for windage. There is no inbetween.
I expect them to be capable of hitting dead on if I do my part, and within the practical parameters of the platform in question, the gun needs to remove as much guesswork by me as possible.
Denis
Your gun, but I would not accept that.
It's such an easy matter to correct, why would you?
My 64 was issued to me in July of 1980. It was carried on & off duty till we got the Glocks in '88, at which time I bought it.
During that period, if it'd been even 2 inches off at 25, much less 4, it would not have been carried. End of story.
Removed from service till the problem (and sight) was corrected.
Aiming 2-4 inches right may be acceptable to you in playing around on the range, but even there it wouldn't be for me.
On a carry gun (which may not be applicable to you) or a home defense gun, foolish to count on the time or the memory under stress to remember to "just aim right".
I had a customized fixed-sight .32 Mag revolver that shot one inch left at 7 yards. At 25 it was a full four inches left.
Not acceptable. It got corrected.
I may be more demanding than many on this issue, but my guns either come zeroed for windage or get zeroed for windage. There is no inbetween.
I expect them to be capable of hitting dead on if I do my part, and within the practical parameters of the platform in question, the gun needs to remove as much guesswork by me as possible.
Denis
