Model of 91 Sample Combination Sets

[Boulder350]

I just purchased of Model of 91 that needs some work. Don't have it in hand yet so these are the only pictures I have. The frame and the barrel assembly serial numbers don't match. Bought it for parts since it needs some work.

Just looked up the serial numbers for single shots in the book Smith and Wesson 1857 - 1945 by Neal and Jinks. Neither serial number was listed in the 22 or 32 caliber section but it was listed in the 38 caliber Single Shot section. The frame is listed as one of 8 with and SC next to it. The book says its a Sample Combination set frame.

Never noticed before that they made sample sets. Does anyone know what they were or what they included? Do complete sample sets still exist? For some strange reason this frame has the serial number stamped on the back strap above the grip. This one will defiantly get a letter. Will also need to raid my stash of spare parts to put it back to a better state.

 

[BMur]

Serial number?

I can’t comment on sample sets but I can comment on that number stamped high on the back strap. That wasn’t done by the factory in my opinion that’s an agency number. Or property number. Those numbers are not Smith & Wesson die stamps. They are plain block numbers.

I’d bet there is a serial number on the bottom of the grip frame. A 4 digit serial number is too low for a frame having a logo stamped on it. Post 1896.

I also don’t believe those Target grips came with this SA MODEL OF 91. They were added some time later. A factory stamped serial number on the bottom of the grip frame would be proof it came with standard size grips originally.

Murph

 

[Club Gun Fan]

What is the serial number on the butt, or the frontstrap?

 

[glowe]

Your pictures will not open?? How did you post them?

 

[Boulder350]

I have never seen the serial numbers on the back strap like on this gun. There is not a serial number on the front strap like they usually stamped on single shots with target grips. There may be one letter or number on the bottom of the frame, I can't tell from the pictures. There are no serial numbers on either side of the frame under the grips.

Was the Model of 91 the first gun to have the grips cover the bottom of the gun, in the target configuration? According to book Smith and Wesson 1857 - 1945 the 38 S&W was the first single shot barrel and gun, with a 6" barrel. It says shortly after the 32 S&W single shot barrels were available. Then not long after the 22 caliber barrel was also available.

If its a true sample I guess I don't need to send in for a letter. Its states in the same book where those 8 sets were shipped to/assigned to.

 

[Boulder350]

I downloaded the pictures and then printed them as a pdf. For some reason when I try to open the pictures from my post above it down loads them to my computer. I have too many grey hairs to figure it out.

 

[BMur]

PHOTOS ENHANCED

Here ya go Mark.
I cleaned them up some and ZOOMED IN.
I still think that’s an AGENCY/ PROPERTY number on the back strap.

Murph

 

[glowe]

I downloaded the pictures and then printed them as a pdf. For some reason when I try to open the pictures from my post above it down loads them to my computer. I have too many grey hairs to figure it out.

Thanks, that answers the question. Word and Adobe Acrobat documents will not automatically open like jpeg images.

The Model 1891 was the first single shot pistol made by S&W. There were 22, 32 S&W, and 38 S&W barrels, all interchangeable. Photos of the butt and frame numbers along with anything on the bottom of the barrel would be helpful. You might be confused by the fact that the frame of these single shot pistols were actually from the 38 Single Action revolver. I have a 38 Model 1891 target revolver with a 38 S&W barrel as shown in a put together kit that I did years ago. These were called combination sets.

 

[rct269]

Under the heading of for what it's worth, I had a (6") Model of '91 Target revolver---lettered as such. It carried an unnumbered latch. Jinks stated it was a special order, and opined a standard revolver was "------pulled from stock and fit with the target sights"---also opined the target sights/latch would not have been numbered---explained thus: "The Service Department folks work on one gun at a time----have no parts from other guns on their bench, and no need to number the replacement parts." Also notes "--------the extension target grips were available as an option."---------and this gun carried the target grips (also unnumbered).

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, any and every time I came up with an anomaly, and lacking a precise explanation, Jinks invariably fell back on his tried and true "They would do anything anybody would pay them to do." (Works for me!)

 

[batt]

Under the heading of for what it's worth, I had a (6") Model of '91 Target revolver---lettered as such. It carried an unnumbered latch. Jinks stated it was a special order, and opined a standard revolver was "------pulled from stock and fit with the target sights"---also opined the target sights/latch would not have been numbered---explained thus: "The Service Department folks work on one gun at a time----have no parts from other guns on their bench, and no need to number the replacement parts." Also notes "--------the extension target grips were available as an option."---------and this gun carried the target grips (also unnumbered).

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, any and every time I came up with an anomaly, and lacking a precise explanation, Jinks invariably fell back on his tried and true "They would do anything anybody would pay them to do." (Works for me!)

Hello.

I have a Model of '91 Target revolver in the same configuration: serial number matching on frame butt and barrel, but no serial on the latch, and another serial on the grips.

(and also british proof marks ^^)

It was probably a special order, then?

(Also: no S&W logo on the frame, and no caliber markings on the barrel) Just the 2 patents lines and "Model of 91" on the top strap)

 

[rct269]

Well now we have an apples and oranges situation. My revolver is just that---a revolver----with a 5 shot cylinder---that revolves---known as a 38 Single Action Third Model---also as a Model of '91.

Your pictures show a single shot pistol---same church, but different pew in this case. Your pistol is a First Model Single Shot (aka Model Single Shot First Model or Single Shot Model 1891). ( I don't know why they messed with the names like that---something in the Massachusetts water maybe.)

Anyhow, your pistol consists of the frame from a revolver like mine, and a single shot barrel (available in 6, 8, & 10" lengths)--rather clever actually-----and produced at minimal risk. All they had to do to see if this turkey was going to fly was make a barrel.

Now we go to the good news/bad news portion of this report. The good news is there's a list of the serial numbers of the First Model Single Shots. The bad news is it's incomplete, but the best they could do at the time. The worse news is your gun ain't on the list---and pretty much the Kiss of Death news is your serial number ain't on the gun in the right place for it to be a "real" single shot. (The serial number on real single shots is on the front strap of the grip frame---most of the time---but not always. They did things like that back then to make our lives miserable today!!) BUT---your barrel is numbered to your frame, so it's more than very damn likely you have a real one----never mind anything else.

You can get a letter from the S&W Historical Foundation (see their section here on the forum) that will almost certainly confirm its legitimacy. It will also tell you when it shipped---and where it shipped. One of mine went to Germany---no reason why yours couldn't have gone to England---first crack out of the box---or maybe later on. And if it was later on, the letter isn't going to say anything about it.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[batt]

Thank you very much for all theses informations! ^^

There is another marking on the frame, from the british importer: "Watson bros", who still exists today and seem to have keep records back to 1875 according to their website, so that's another string to pull to know more about the history of this gun ^^.

I will keep you updated, thanks again!

 

[Boulder350]

Thanks for your help guys. Will post more info on it when it arrives.

 

[rct269]

I just thought of a clever, and interesting little tid-bit some of those folks new to these 1st Model single shots may find intriguing:

The frame and action come from a center-fire revolver. The single shots come in two different center-fire calibers (.32 & .38)-----and the majority in .22 Long Rifle---a rim-fire cartridge.

That unlikely combination being functional with a center-fire action was accomplished by boring the .22 caliber barrels on a bias----such that the center-fire hammer/firing pin strikes the rim-fire cartridge on the rim----the bullet exiting the barrel dead center. (If/when you may come across a .22 barrel that's been cut, you'll notice the bore is off center (at the muzzle)---a dead giveaway!)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[batt]

Well now we have an apples and oranges situation. My revolver is just that---a revolver----with a 5 shot cylinder---that revolves---known as a 38 Single Action Third Model---also as a Model of '91.

Your pictures show a single shot pistol---same church, but different pew in this case. Your pistol is a First Model Single Shot (aka Model Single Shot First Model or Single Shot Model 1891). ( I don't know why they messed with the names like that---something in the Massachusetts water maybe.)

Anyhow, your pistol consists of the frame from a revolver like mine, and a single shot barrel (available in 6, 8, & 10" lengths)--rather clever actually-----and produced at minimal risk. All they had to do to see if this turkey was going to fly was make a barrel.

Now we go to the good news/bad news portion of this report. The good news is there's a list of the serial numbers of the First Model Single Shots. The bad news is it's incomplete, but the best they could do at the time. The worse news is your gun ain't on the list---and pretty much the Kiss of Death news is your serial number ain't on the gun in the right place for it to be a "real" single shot. (The serial number on real single shots is on the front strap of the grip frame---most of the time---but not always. They did things like that back then to make our lives miserable today!!) BUT---your barrel is numbered to your frame, so it's more than very damn likely you have a real one----never mind anything else.

You can get a letter from the S&W Historical Foundation (see their section here on the forum) that will almost certainly confirm its legitimacy. It will also tell you when it shipped---and where it shipped. One of mine went to Germany---no reason why yours couldn't have gone to England---first crack out of the box---or maybe later on. And if it was later on, the letter isn't going to say anything about it.

Ralph Tremaine

Hello!

Just to keep you updated:

 

[gmborkovic]

What the hell variant is that barrel hinge screw and nut?

 

[rct269]

What the hell variant is that barrel hinge screw and nut?

That's what's known as the Bubba variant----commonly found on pistols repaired by folks who knew neither how to read nor write so as to track down appropriate parts, but were at least somewhat skilled at making do----and sometimes also really good at strumming a banjo.

Ralph Tremaine