Modern ammunition in .32 S&W

Tinker Pearce

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I've been told that it was safe to shoot modern factory .32 S&W loads even in 19th century guns originally designed for Black Powder, provided that they are quality guns and in good condition. Appealing to the group mind here- is this true? I'm told factory loads for this round used black powder right up until WW2, and when they switched to smokeless it would only have made sense to formulate loads that were safe in older guns.
 
I have seen .32 S&W fired in Clerke 1st revolvers and not explode. If they are safe in that piece of carp, should be right OK in your gun. I believe modern loads are 85 gr @ about 600 fps IIRC. Joe
 
I've been told that it was safe to shoot modern factory .32 S&W loads even in 19th century guns originally designed for Black Powder, provided that they are quality guns and in good condition. Appealing to the group mind here- is this true? I'm told factory loads for this round used black powder right up until WW2, and when they switched to smokeless it would only have made sense to formulate loads that were safe in older guns.
Interesting that you bring that up. A few weeks back I found a very nice S&W antique in .32 S&W that had been refinished very nicely and it was not at a bad price either. I thought it was about time to add an antique to my S&W collection but then the big question came up: Can I shoot it? :confused:

The shop proprietor, who I respect as far more expert than me on older/antique guns, told me no, that I shouldn't shoot it and he went into a long speech on the whole black powder vs. smokeless powder thing. :(

I left the gun in the shop a little disappointed, but I haven't forgotten about it. Still, I have no use for a fancy decoration. It needs to be functional or forget about it. :(

I'll be very interested to see what the forum's antique experts have to say on the topic. :)
 
Ammunition manufactures Must load down to the oldest firearm that will shoot the ammo The 45/70 rifle loads by Remington can safely be shot in the old trap door guns .32 -s&w ctg. is also down loaded to be shot in QUALITY guns S&W,Colt Some H&R, I.J. Notice i said QUALITY firearms. Do you realize how many law suits the ammo .companies would have to fight if they over load cartridges
 
The currently .32 S&W ammo is loaded to a very mild velocity, and is perfectly safe in any old .32 that is in good condition. I have several dating back to .32 Single Actions of the 1870's to 1880's that I have fired current ammo in, with no difficulties or damage. They are so mild it is less than an 22 RF.
 
I have fired many top break firearms with modern factory loads with no problems. But as stated above they need to be in good condition. I just finished firing a .32 single action with factory rounds to see if they were any more accurate than my reloads, they weren't.
 
Just to play the devil's advocate ...

... the most modern antique firearm is at least 118 years old. Metallurgy and manufacturing have come a long way since 1898 (and before). I'd also suspect a lot of the "quality" firearms from that era wouldn't pass modern quality control checks, so it's probably best to be wary of these subjective assumptions about what constitutes "quality" and what doesn't.

I'm not sure that any manufacturer is obligated to charge their ammunition to the oldest gun that will chamber it. SAAMI specifications take a lot of things into consideration, but I've never read anything empirical to suggest that this is a consideration. Maybe it is, but if I'm going to expose myself to the risk of shooting a gun this old, I'd still like to have more than some assumptions on which to base my safety (and the safety of the antique I'm about to shoot).

Black powder does indeed have very different characteristics than modern smokeless powder, and there are numerous examples of black powder guns that were blown to bits by smokeless powder.

The logical course of action, in my humble opinion, is to not shoot modern ammunition in antique firearms. There's been endless debate about whether the top break S&W's from the late 19th century can chamber modern ammo, and I know a lot of people do it ... but that doesn't make it a safe or smart thing to do.

A parting thought: every day there are fewer of these old guns left. Do we really need to speed up their demise with wear and tear, or (worse yet) their possible destruction from modern ammo?

Mike
 
Just to play the devil's advocate ...

... the most modern antique firearm is at least 118 years old. Metallurgy and manufacturing have come a long way since 1898 (and before). I'd also suspect a lot of the "quality" firearms from that era wouldn't pass modern quality control checks, so it's probably best to be wary of these subjective assumptions about what constitutes "quality" and what doesn't.

I'm not sure that any manufacturer is obligated to charge their ammunition to the oldest gun that will chamber it. SAAMI specifications take a lot of things into consideration, but I've never read anything empirical to suggest that this is a consideration. Maybe it is, but if I'm going to expose myself to the risk of shooting a gun this old, I'd still like to have more than some assumptions on which to base my safety (and the safety of the antique I'm about to shoot).

Black powder does indeed have very different characteristics than modern smokeless powder, and there are numerous examples of black powder guns that were blown to bits by smokeless powder.

The logical course of action, in my humble opinion, is to not shoot modern ammunition in antique firearms. There's been endless debate about whether the top break S&W's from the late 19th century can chamber modern ammo, and I know a lot of people do it ... but that doesn't make it a safe or smart thing to do.

A parting thought: every day there are fewer of these old guns left. Do we really need to speed up their demise with wear and tear, or (worse yet) their possible destruction from modern ammo?

Mike

I am PLEASED that you responded to this thread in this fashion. I recently responded to a similar post in a different thread and just about got my head ripped off! Prepare for the same: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/478300-new-model-3-frontier-44-40-a.html#post139135497

I don't think I could have said it better than you did. Most, however, disagree with us!
 
I don't think I could have said it better than you did. Most, however, disagree with us!

Most people aren't historical metallurgical experts, or ballistic engineering experts, etc. And the fact that some guy shot a top break .32 with modern ammo in his backyard doesn't constitute "proof" that it's safe.

And to be clear: I'm not emphatically saying that it isn't safe. I'm simply saying that I don't know, and that (in my opinion) the number of unknowns, a preponderance of caution and the dwindling number of these guns makes not shooting them a wise choice.

People are free to tear up my opinion and ignore it. That's cool.

Mike
 
As .32 Smith and Wesson (.32 short) is meant to be shot in the top breaks, but should not be shot in the top breaks(?) what is the purpose or point to the load then? We are not talking .357 Mag here. The .32 short is loaded to and meant to be shot in the old .32 cal top breaks.
 
As .32 Smith and Wesson (.32 short) is meant to be shot in the top breaks, but should not be shot in the top breaks(?) what is the purpose or point to the load then? We are not talking .357 Mag here. The .32 short is loaded to and meant to be shot in the old .32 cal top breaks.

Good question.

The .32 S&W was originally designed as a black powder cartridge for the Model 1 1/2 (which dates back to the 1870's, well before smokeless powder had been devised). Black powder, as you may know, has entirely different ballistic qualities than modern smokeless powder (which is what modern ammunition is charged with).

So: modern .32 S&W ammo is (we think) dimensionally identical to 19th century .32 S&W ammo, and it seems to chamber in the .32 top breaks just fine. What we don't know is if the pressures generated by the modern ammo are safe for black powder guns.

I'm not taking that chance.

Mike
 
As .32 Smith and Wesson (.32 short) is meant to be shot in the top breaks, but should not be shot in the top breaks(?) what is the purpose or point to the load then?
Interesting point. Just off the top of my head, is there such a thing as a "modern" 32 S&W revolver? (i.e. post WW2)
 
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Interesting point. Just off the top of my head, is there such a thing as a "modern" 32 S&W revolver? (i.e. post WW2)

I should think that the "modern" Smith & Wesson originated with the first hand ejector, with the Model of 1896. By 1908, certainly, with the . 44 Hand Ejector First Model, and maybe earlier, the "modern" revolver had arrived, as these are safe to shoot with smokeless powder, so post WWII is an era much later than when the "modern" Smith & Wesson had arrived.
 
The .32 S&W was originally designed as a black powder cartridge for the Model 1 1/2 (which dates back to the 1870's, well before smokeless powder had been devised). Black powder, as you may know, has entirely different ballistic qualities than modern smokeless powder (which is what modern ammunition is charged with).

The pressure curve is steeper in a smokeless load compared to BP, but I bet peak pressure is identical or less. I wouldn't be shooting that .32 S&W not because it's dangerous but rather @ $1/rd I'll shoot .44mag. Joe
 
In fact, Are there any "modern" guns actually chambered in .32 S&W ??. I suppose you could consider some of the late S&W top-breaks as "modern". (After all some were made up as late as the 1930's.) However most people( non-collectors) can't tell the difference between an 1880's model and a 1920's model and still might want to fire "Grandpa's" gun once of twice. If it is in reasonable condition, why not???
As for myself, I have a number of BP guns and I only fired a few of them. I load with whatever the correct load of the time was, but not so much for "safety" but more for nostalgia. I know that they more than likely will go bang and may have a modicum of accuracy, but I have modern guns that shoot much, much better, so why waste my time and effort on shooting the old ones. I have several I would not be afraid to shoot and several that I wouldn't shoot on a bet. (Mainly because of rarity and/or high condition. After all old guns have been known to blow up with BP also.)

Bottom line..... So until someone comes out with a pocket pistol chambered in .32 S&W +P and factory ammo is available, I wouldn't be adverse to shooting a decent conditioned, common top-break with the current crop of commercial ammo. (However, I would be a little cautious with most of the Belgian or Spanish varieties...)
 
Just as an aside, before the Cowboy action sport took hold, .45 Colt remained loaded and even in smokeless powder loads, was and is safe to shoot in in the Single Action Army.

The ammo companies keep the old guns alive by making the ammo available and safe to use in the old guns.
 
Remington's .32 S&W factory load fires an 88 grain lead bullet at a screaming 600 fps from a 3 inch revolver. Lyman #45 shows an 84 grain lead bullet using 1.4 grains of Bullseye to hit 608 fps, 1.3 grains of Red Dot to hit 629 fps. That's mouse fart power to me.

If those loads are too stiff, 1.0 grain of Bullseye (that's 1/7,000th of a pound) for 442 fps, or 1.5 grains of Unique for 476 fps.

I have a S&W .32 Double Action Top Break 4th Model with the barrel cut to 2-1/2 inches. Nickel with black rubber stocks, shipped in 1888, it looks like a toy we used to get in our breakfast cereal boxes.

I have a S&W .32 Single Action, 3-1/2 inch barrel, nickel with mother of pearl stocks, shipped in August, 1879.

I bought two boxes of Winchester .32 S&W Ammo and shot them through the double action. Kicked like a .22, but felt ssslllooooooooowweeeeerrrrr. They sounded like, "poop poop poop."

A few years later, I bought the .32 Single Action. I reloaded the 100 empties with the Speer 98 grain wadcutter, seated out a bit, and 1.0 grains Bullseye in 25 cartridges, 1.4 grains Bullseye in 25 cartridges, 1.5 grains of Unique in 25 cartridges and 2.0 grains of Unique in the last 25 cartridges.

I shot them. No drama and not much a difference between the lesser loads and the not-much-more-than lesser loads. They all fired, little recoil or noise.

With both guns, the empty cases fell out of the cylinders by just pointing the rear of the cylinders down and shaking them gently. The cases all had soot on about 1/3 of the outsides of the cases, indication there wasn't
enough pressure generated to seal the chambers and burn the powder completely.

It didn't do any harm to the guns that I was able to tell.

I won't recommend that anybody shoot anything without making sure your gun is in good working order.

If it gets a clean bill of heath, I doubt that a box or two of either Winchester or Remington-Peters will do your handgun any damage.

I would caution people that these guns are not very robust, even when they were made. Even the quality guns shooting this cartridge weren't for a lot of shooting. They were designed to be shot when you were accosted. not for shooting the Steel Plate Challenge or ICORE.
 
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This question comes up every now and then. The answers
are the same as above. If I was just plinking, I'd use something
newer.
When I started looking for a handgun that would fit
my hands, I ended up with a bunch of BreakTop S&W's.
Since I was looking for a working gun, I only bought those that were in good condition, and asked my gunsmith for an opinion before I
tried them out. They all seemed okay, but they weren't for
regular practice. Once I Knew they worked okay, that was about it.
Like it was stated above, I realized that the ballistics were
so anemic that I ended up with modern handguns for regular
use and retired the BT's.
Personally, I won't own a firearm that doesn't work, or that
I'd be afraid to shoot.
Those old BT's sure are pretty, though.
TACC1
 
I have four S&W 32 top breaks, SA, DA, and safety hammerless. Also have several Iver Johnson and H&R, top breaks and solid frame types. I've shot most of them with factory and my own reloads using Trailboss, Bullseye and FFFG black powder behind 85 to 90gr lead bullets.

Some observations:

1. Black powder loads had the heaviest recoil, followed by the Remington factory loads. My loads with 1 to 1.5 gr Bullseye were even less and the Trailboss loads were so mild that I had to check the barrel after the first shot to be sure the bullet cleared it!.

2. The quality of all of my S&W top breaks is head and heels above the others. They have withstood the test of time better than their imitators.

3. Trailboss loads are the way to go. you just can't get any lighter than them. I used a .3CC Lee powder measure dipper to get a non compressed load with 88 gr lead bullets. cast from an old Ideal multi loadind tool. Bullets were tumble lubed with Lee's liquid Alox.


I think BUFF has a valid point. These types of revolvers were mainly used as deterrents and shot little. I found that it was very difficult to run more than two cylinders full of the black powder loads through them before the actions was too gummed up to operate.

There is no reason not to enjoy shooting your old S&W top breaks. Well maybe I wouldn't shoot a pristine LNIB example. But all mine are shooter grades to varying degrees of condition and solid enough to have a little fun putting small holes into things. Just be careful of what you're plugging away at. They could bounce back! :)

John
 
Consider that the 32 Safety was manufactured until 1937. There was no documented difference in the overall strength of the later models than the pre-1898. Obviously hundreds of thousands were routinely used in the smokeless era. After the initial resistance to smokeless powder at the turn of the century, S&W accepted and guaranteed their products with the proper use of smokeless powder.

There is nothing to suggest that the manufacturing process changed for any top-break S&W after the transition to smokeless powder. The 32 DA was made until 1920, the 38 Safety was made until 1940 and the 38 DA made to 1911. Hoglegs were made well into the Twentieth century as well. 44 New Models were made up to 1912 and the 44 DA went until 1913.

It has to be mentioned that the 38 Perfected was intended to offer a stronger design when it was introduced in 1909, but was never embraced by gun owners and ceased production only 10 years later. The Safety revolvers, on the other hand, continued in production for many decades.

. . . Metallurgy and manufacturing have come a long way since 1898 (and before) . . .

Most people aren't historical metallurgical experts, or ballistic engineering experts, etc. And the fact that some guy shot a top break .32 with modern ammo in his backyard doesn't constitute "proof" that it's safe . . .

I have been waiting a long time for someone to show me the "improved metallurgy" that would have been offered by S&W in the early 1900s as compared to the late 1800s but have never seen such a document. I think some put way too much emphasis on metallurgical developments as the reason why older S&Ws are dangerous with smokeless powders. It's metallurgy and not alchemy and improvements during the times we are talking would not have been meaningful in this discussion.

So now those who commonly use smokeless powder in old S&W revolvers are called lazy, and inferred to be stupid and reckless??

The invention of the Bessemer process in 1813 was the start of the economically feasible steel industry. Steel was introduced as an affordable commodity by 1850. Introduction of oxygen gave pig iron marvelous properties. The open hearth process invented in the 1860s basically improved the way steel was made and not the properties. Open hearth overtook the Bessemer process around 1900. Improvements in strength and ductility of steel from the 1880s into the early 1900s was minimal.

By 1880, yield strength of steel exceeded 30 ksi and in the late 1800s, steel was available with 47 ksi yield strength. Not until 1950s was this high strength considered standard. What we will probably never know is the exact steel strength used by S&W. We do know that the company always found ways of keeping costs of production down, but always provided a quality product, so my bet is high strength steel was used to make quality revolvers for a very long time.

Over-pressure loading is a real danger, and many - many firearms have been destroyed by exceeding the structural capabilities of the gun. Ammunition manufacturers have been making "standard" pressure ammunition forever (Buffalo Bore excepted). They continue to manufacture ammunition made to safely shoot in all makes, models, and ages of revolvers today. The last thing these companies want to do is face multiple lawsuits over the use of their 32 S&W ammunition for example, and am confident they have gone to great lengths to ensure the safe use in good quality top-break revolvers.
 
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