Modern RM History

[Onomea]

Like many of us, I've read Roy's 1989 article several times. And I follow with interest the commentary in the RM posts here on the forum over the last several years. But this is pretty much all about the late 1930s when the guns were new.

I was thinking today that it would be fun to hear about the "modern" history of the RM. Were they appreciated at all prior to the 1989 Roy Jinks article, or had they sunk totally into obscurity? What happened when he published his article? Did just about everyone who read the article start collecting them at that point?

I bet interest, and prices, really began growing with the arrival of widespread internet access in this century, when guys like me started showing up on the forum and saying, "Hmm. I want one of those!"

What was going on with RMs in the 1990s/early '00s?

 

[Onomea]

Like many of us, I've read Roy's 1989 article several times. And I follow with interest the commentary in the RM posts here on the forum over the last several years. But this is pretty much all about the late 1930s when the guns were new.

I was thinking today that it would be fun to hear about the "modern" history of the RM. Were they appreciated at all prior to the 1989 Roy Jinks article, or had they sunk totally into obscurity? What happened when he published his article? Did just about everyone who read the article start collecting them at that point?

I bet interest, and prices, really began growing with the arrival of widespread internet access in this century, when guys like me started showing up on the forum and saying, "Hmm. I want one of those!"

What was going on with RMs in the 1990s/early '00s?

 

[opoefc]

Arlo, Interesting question, my viewpoint is this: I started collecting S&W in WW2 and then the focus seemed to be (among S&W fans) on older model like the T-Locks and pre 1900 models. Guns made after about WW1 where "modern" and weren't rally collectable but were shooters. RMs were around, nice guns of obvious quality, but you bought them for shooting & hunting. A minty RM in the box, with certificate, was about a $100. You didn't see RMs in displays of S&Ws at the bigger gun shows. Most serious S&W guys had maybe one or two in their collections, just because they were well made S&Ws but people weren't putting the acquistion of RMs as paramount in their collecting search. After the S&WCA was formed it provided a forum for collectors to exchange interests, etc. thru the S&WCA and like the internet today, information became more available about S&Ws and RM became better known and collectors began to focus more on their uniqueness. Demand and prices began to grow. Roy has always had an affinity for the RMs and their history, etc. and is constantly researching the archives for the information that is buried there about RMs. His articles certainly helped build the bonfires under many of our members leading to everyone wanting an RM. About 15 yrs ago, several people began running wanted ads in the gun press for RMs and the prices started rising and haven't stopped yet. My collecting style is to buy something, keep it awhile until I have learned all I can about it and then sell it and buy something else. That "something" may be one gun or a whole collection. I've probably owned 50+ RMs so far, and have about 3 or 4 at the moment. If I was smart I never would have sold any of them! At any given time, there are guns that are hot items for collectors to chase. Currently RMs are hot and supply vs demand has put the prices up to the point that many collectors consider themselves lucky to have one RM. Supply will never catch up with demand, so I don't see them getting any cheaper. A really serious N frame collector can have a lot of fun putting together a collection of RMs of every barrel length offered. But he better have won the lottery first! Ed.

 

[jphendren]

I'm not speaking from first hand experience so take this with a grain of salt. I believe that this forum may have had an impact on the RM's current popularity and recent price increase. Everything I know about them I picked up on this forum and Roy Jinks article; and now I have two.

Jared

 

[mikepriwer]

Well -

Insofar as trying to build a collection of all
the barrel lengths, that would be harder to do
than going to the moon. Some of the 1/4"
lengths are known to have to 3 or 5 examples
ever made, and one length has only one known.

Even if 10 collectors had the money, it would
be a futile exercise !

These are a curious set of guns. Most of the
survivors are not mint examples, having been
used and/or carried. So - a lot of the guns
being collected are refinished - something that
in other non-RM models is frowned on, by a lot
of collectors.

Secondly, they are a rather heavy gun for target
shooting, and, in fact, the real mainstay of
target shooters was the .38 M&P target.
McGivern never set any significant records with
a registered magnum, as far as I know.

Having said all of that, they demand very high
prices - far higher than a .38 M&P target !

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Art Doc]

I teach art history (among other art classes) and students will ask me what makes a particular piece of art valuable. I always tell them there are basically four factors in assigning monetary value.

1: Scarcity. Gold is hundreds of dollars per ounce because there is not that much of it laying around. Supply and demand.

2: Age. When something has survived for a long time (relative to the object being considered) it becomes more valuable. Partly this is because of increasing scarcity (see #1) and also because the "awe factor" when dealing with things of great age. Old people are generally not revered in our culture but old objects often are.

3: Quality. A 500 year old da Vinci painting will always be worth more than a 500 year old painting by a lesser artist. Two factors here, the actual quality of the work and the quality of the name "da Vinci." The lesser known artist is lesser known for a reason.

4: Popularity. No matter how old, or rare or well-made an item may be, if people don't like or want it then the value is stagnant. But the reverse can be true. Sometimes things that lack the other qualities can attain high monetary value through popularity alone. Often it defies explanation but it happens.

So let's consider the Pre-war .357 Magnum (RM) S&W revolvers.

1: Only some 5,500 made. This is relatively scarce for a production revolver. Many saw LE duty and have been destroyed or lost, perhaps in greater numbers than other revolvers not used by police as much.

2: All of these revolvers are over 70 years old and in firearms that's getting pretty old.

3: These were specialty items and were as deluxe as could be made at the time.

4: With the Baby Boomers yearning for nostalgia and having plenty of money to indulge their hobbies, things like classic cars, classic homes, and classic guns have gone through the roof in terms of monetary value as late.

 

[Onomea]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I appreciate the replies.

I've been thinking about Ed's comment that "At any given time, there are guns that are hot items for collectors to chase," and enjoy the perspective that his years of collecting brings to novices like myself. It is interesting how the excitement for a particular gun can sorta build into a feeding frenzy, as it has with RMs. I think 38/44 HDs are starting to experience this as well, which probably means Bill is gonna be a wealthy man (in addition to being well armed!)

I think TLs have probably remained consistently desirable over the years. There is something about that third lock that remains attractive over the generations, no doubt.

Jared, I agree with you. I'm in the same boat, and never would have heard of an RM if I hadn't stumbled onto this forum a coupla years back. I've had a great time learning about them here, to be sure.

Mike, your observation is of interest to me, too:

Secondly, they [RMs] are a rather heavy gun for target shooting, and, in fact, the real mainstay of target shooters was the .38 M&P target. McGivern never set any significant records with a registered magnum, as far as I know.

Now I thought a heavy gun was what target shooters wanted, and that the 38/44 Outdoorsman is an example of this, as are the Colt New Service Targets and the Shooting Masters. And from what I've read, I'd argue that McGivern was more of a trick shot/rapid shot shooting artist than what is normally thought of as a target shooter. I think his forte was speed, tho his rapid shooting was impressively accurate, to be sure. I also note that your main collecting interest is 38 M&P targets (Model of 1905 targets?). These seem to me, at least from reading the forum here, to be an underappreciated focus for collecting. Any thoughts on why that is so, or was it more popular in earlier years, hence just another example of the whims of collecting fashion, and likely to be hotter than that proverbial pistol in a few years?

In considering Sax's observation on scarcity, age, quality and popularity, I got to thinking on K-22 2nds, or 1st model Masterpieces. Now why is it, do you suppose, that while they are pricey, they are not as pricey as RMs? I know some have gone for RM prices, but I think in reasonably high condition they've been going for between $2K to $3K, and less than RMs, on average. They're scarcer than RMs, only five years or less difference in age, very high quality, but definitely not as popular. Now why is that?

My guess is that they are not as "sexy." (Now let's see if Bruce picks this one up!

)
After all, it is hard to imagine Jelly Bryce bustin' into a desperado's hideout brandishing a K-22…

 

[mikepriwer]

Arlo

The .38 M&P targets may, or may not, be under-appreciated, but you have to
remember that there are about 700,000 1905 revolvers. However you want to think
about that number, there are an ample amount of target revolvers to keep the
price reasonable. And, they are mostly all the same. They were not a custom gun,
like a registered magnum

The K-frame was clearly the revolver that was most important to the factory.
As to production there were at least 10 times as many pre-WW2 K-frames compared
to N-frames. And the same thing was true in the decade after WW2. And this
doesn't include the nearly 1 million Victory models made during WW2.

Most important than that, however, was the influence of the target shooters
on the thinking of the factory following WW2. They were the lobby that caused
the redesign of the K-frames, resulting in a separate series for target revolvers.
And, they were the lobby that pushed for equal-weight between the .22's, the .32's,
and the .38's , which itself caused a second redesign of the barrel to achieve
that goal.

The real hayday of American target shooting was the 1920's, and the very early
early 30's . Needless to say, this was all before the birth of the registered
magnum. The dominantly-used gun was the M&P target. The K-frames were also the
mainstay of Law Enforcement Agencies, and many of them had shooting teams that
competed with the target version of their duty guns.

The registered magnum has come to be in a collector class of its own. Given the
custom nature of the line, there are lots of combinations of sights and barrel
lengths. And there are not tons of survivors, so the prices are correspondingly
higher than the K-frame targets.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[rburg]

Hmmm. Fun topic.

Yes, this forum probably has done more to blow the prices out of range than any/all other factors combined. While Roy's article was pretty good for its time, its full of errors and problems. Still good reading, but don't trust the numbers.

About 2 years ago I had 35 of them. I just sold 5 more to DC over the weekend. With prices that crazy high, I don't need to be sitting on so many of them. I'm willing to allow others to enjoy some of them.

And just for perspective, I had one sitting in my booth at the gunshow over the weekend. Sure, its a KC gun that had some modifications done over the years, but still a fine gun. Lots of lookers, no takers. I think I'll add $50 to the cost (shipping and storage) each show until some fool buys it!

Knowledge is a huge advantage in almost everything. You can still find and buy them, some cheap, just buy knowing what you're looking for. I've purchased them really cheap a time or two. But then one time I was browsing a tiny show and a guy had a nasty old chrome plated revolver for sale. He was asking way too much for it, $700. At that show, anything higher than a rusty Victory or single barrel break action shotgun was pretty elite. When I finally caught up to him, he was showing it to a vendor. The vendors eyes were kind of glazed over, him wanting that much for a nasty old 44. I was polite and waited. When he turned away, I asked if I could see it. Sure, it was a 4" gun with a scratched nickel finish. What caught my eye was the little barb sticking out of the open crane.

Clearly a Triple Lock. But what really caught my eye was the caliber. I was expecting 44 S&W Special or some such nonsense. Nope. It was just a 44 Winchester.

So trying to act cool, I pointed out that it was pretty highly priced for that show. He said he knew that now, but wanted a fair price. I just wasn't in the mood to accomodate him, so I offered him $600 if he threw in the gun rug.

The others were suggesting it was a $300 gun at best. My guess was that a fair value was closer to $3,000, so I wasn't inclined to pay "fair". The seller made a quick decision that green was preferable to heavy nickle and sold. Such is life. Just for the record, I traded that one off for a couple of RMs.

I know that we're supposed to be modern types here. We say you should read the internet for what it contains. My suggestion is that anyone with Roy's articles and an avid interest should also print all the old RM threads we've created here. If at some point someone wanted to glean the important points, that would be about the best that could be done. No where else will you get this kind of information.

 

[WoodSmith]

........you should read the internet for what it contains. My suggestion is that anyone with Roy's articles and an avid interest should also print all the old RM threads we've created here. If at some point someone wanted to glean the important points, that would be about the best that could be done. No where else will you get this kind of information.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks to Onomea, GeoffM24, rburg and others on this Forum I was armed with knowledge and picked up RM #989 a couple weeks ago. Jinks letter should arrive by December(?) and I'll post info and pictures at that time. Many thanks gentlemen!