Moon clips vs. speedloaders and partial reloads

[UncleEd]

In viewing a number of sites including Paul
Herrell and Clint Smith regarding the reloading of
revolvers, I noticed the stressing of partial
reloads or full reloads using speedloaders, not
moon clips.

Moon clips are faster in some cases and perhaps
great for competitions, it seems, but not
necessarily for home or street defense.

I wonder how many moon clip fans actually rely
on them for what they might perceive as actual defense
revolver shooting.

I've had some Smith revolvers where moon clips were
provided and in the few occasions I tried them, I found
them less than stellar because the cartridges wiggled
around too much.

In Jerry Miculek's demonstrations using them, I suspect
he relies totally on round nose bullets.

One aspect stressed by Herrell and Smith is the partial
reload, only replacing one or two or three rounds from
cartridge pouches or speed strips.

I've come to the conclusion that moon clips really are
no advantage in practical DA revolver shooting. They
are gimmicks borne of necessity in WWI revolvers.
And that was taken care of with auto rim casings.

 

[OKFC05]

There is a huge difference between using moon clips with semi-auto cartridges and using them with revolver cartridges like .38 special. I despise trying to do speed loads with .38 special in clips for the very reason you cited: the cartridges wiggle around too much too be any advantage over a speed loader. The clipped .38s are more positive to unload, as all 6 come out together.

However, my 646 is chambered for .40 S&W and the cylinder is chamfered, so I can literally toss the clipped .40s smoothly into the cylinder. No comparison. Distinctly faster and more positive than any other loading method.

As to partial reloads, OK if you have a safe place and all the time in the world, just a way to waste time and take your eyes off the threat if you don't. My issue weapon in service was a S&W Model 15.
I have competed in IDPA and USPSA with revolvers for many years, Model 66 with speedloaders, .38, and 646 moonclips, .40 S&W.

 

[Pizza Bob]

I've got to disagree - at least in most instances.

The OP is basing his opinion on a lot of reading and only one instance of actual usage. If moons were actually slower than speed loaders or strips you would not see them dominate in competition.

He is correct that if there is cartridge wiggle - depending on the cartridge and the firearm - it can become problematic and greatly slow the loading process, especially in an 8-round revolver.

With .45 ACP that wiggle actually facilitates loading. With other cartridges it is important to eliminate the wiggle. That is why competition shooters, using calibers other than .45 ACP, segregate their brass and use only one headstamp with one brand moon clip to get the tightest fit.

Obviously, round nose bullets work best, but the same holds true if you are loading with a speed loader. There are many defensive rounds that use bullets with a rounded ogive - I favor 230 gr Speer Gold Dots in .45 ACP. It would also be recommended that the charge holes be chamfered - but again, that holds true speed loaders too.

Partial reload? I can't see someone who has just been shot at, under that kind of duress, picking individual empties off the extractor star. I can see someone dumping a partially used moon clip - and retaining it - and then reloading with a full one.

The OP's experience is just the opposite of what we usually see. Most people's first experience with moon clips comes with a .45 ACP revolver. With the little bit of wiggle, the short, fat, round-nose, nose-heavy cartridge, practically load themselves. Then they buy something like a 627 8-shot that is cut for moons and make the discovery the OP made - not so easy with 8 long cartridges and 8 closely spaced holes.

BTW, the WWI solution was half-moon clips and they were not meant for speed but rather to be able to adapt the standard service cartridge to a different platform than was originally intended. The half-moon clip was also more compact and easier to store in a cartridge pouch on the belt. Full-moons didn't come along until much later ('70's??).

Match the cartridge to the clip and you will have a better experience.

Adios,

Pizza Bob<---has moon clip guns in 9mm, .38 Super, .38/.357 Mag, .40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP

 

[326MOD10]

If you carry a J Frame or short barreled revolver with a moon clip on your carry load it does provide positive extraction when you go to reload. The reload though, due to how easily moon clips can get damaged, would be a speed loader or strip.

I also don't see the average person plucking out a round at a time in a combat situation.

I used to do that when I was qualifying with my back-up/off duty revolver and it would not be the way to go in a real situation. I only did it then because it was easier to recover my brass, among all the 9mm, and I was trying not to hold up the line for to long with having to reload my speed loaders.

 

[ericrlarson]

This was an interesting topic. Ok I have a silly question. If I wanted a 627 that was cut for moon clips, would there be any negative effect if I didn’t use them?


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[Pizza Bob]

This was an interesting topic. Ok I have a silly question. If I wanted a 627 that was cut for moon clips, would there be any negative effect if I didn’t use them?


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No. The cut for the clips only affects the center of the cylinder. There is a rim left around the outside circumference on which the rim of the cartridge can headspace.

Here is a picture (it's a J-frame cylinder, but it works the same with a 627)...

notice the ridge around the outside of the face of the cylinder.

What makes it tricky for rimmed cartridges is that there is no SAAMI spec for the groove ahead of the rim, so you have to make sure that you get moon clips of the correct thickness to fit in the groove on the type of brass you'll be using. With auto-loading cartridges, SAAMI specifies the extractor groove dimension.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[robertrwalsh]

When I carry a revolver these days (not that often any more) i USUALLY carry speed strips, as much for ease of carry as it is for the ability to do a partial reload with little hassle.

 

[ericrlarson]

No. The cut for the clips only affects the center of the cylinder. There is a rim left around the outside circumference on which the rim of the cartridge can headspace.

Here is a picture (it's a J-frame cylinder, but it works the same with a 627)...

notice the ridge around the outside of the face of the cylinder.

What makes it tricky for rimmed cartridges is that there is no SAAMI spec for the groove ahead of the rim, so you have to make sure that you get moon clips of the correct thickness to fit in the groove on the type of brass you'll be using. With auto-loading cartridges, SAAMI specifies the extractor groove dimension.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Thank you, sir! I really appreciate your knowledge.


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[BB57]

There are few key factors that make moon clips work well for cartridges like the .380 ACP, 9mm Luger and the .45 ACP:

1) Short cartridge OAL. While some wiggle can help align the individual bullets, too much wiggle combined with too long a cartridge can result in the bullet nose missing the hole entirely, especially with hollow points using a larger meplat.

2) Even with a short cartridge a large meplat makes it a bit more difficult to get all 5, 6, 7, or 8 cartridges to align at the same time. If you're using a lead semi-wad cutter with both a large meplat and a sharp shoulder....good luck with that.

3) The extractor groove in semi-auto cartridges helps reduce the wiggle compared to a rimmed cartridge like the .38 Special or .357 Magnum.

----

All of the above are why moon clips work really well in competition using a short, rimless cartridge with a round nosed bullet. It's also a big assist when you can carry them in an o[en topped carrier that keeps them on a spindle and controls the points so that the moon clip doesn't get bent.

However, out in the real world with a .357 Magnum cartridge and a hollow point with a large meplat, it's not going to work nearly as well - especially when that loaded moon clip you've been carrying for days, weeks or months happens to get bent.

Someone suggested above that you'd only use a moon clip for the rounds in the revolver and do the reload with a speed loader to avoid the bent moon clip issue. The upside is potentially more positive ejection, but I'll argue it's a solution in search of a problem.

----

The FBI used to advocate using speed strips and a partial reload -loading 2 rounds and getting back in the fight as soon as possible.

But that was with speed strips. Using a speed loader and the FBI reload method I can do a complete reload with a speed loader just as fast as two rounds with a speed strip - and never take my eyes off the threat. The Stress Fire reload offers more positive ejection with .357 Magnum and the increase in time required is minimal.

So the partial reload argument really only comes into play if you're using speed strips. And then it's really going to come down to the tactical situation and the time available. It's also important to remember that you have to properly index the cylinder with a partial reload. At best you have to take your eyes off the threat, and at worst, you'll screw it up under extreme stress and get one or more clicks before you finally have a round that fires.

----

In summary then:

1) Moon clips work great in competition, but are a non starter in real world use (which is sadly true for many things related to "practical" pistol and revolver competition.

2) Speed strips are for folks who really don't think they'll need a tactical reload and/or cannot conceal a speed loader, and the partial reload question comes down to the tactical situation as well as your level of practice and proficiency in properly indexing the cylinder under extreme stress.

3) Speed loaders are what you use in the real world when you really think you might need a tactical reload. And then you need to practice with them to be able to do it effectively, quickly and reliably under extreme stress. Your best bet with a speed loader is to practice with it every time you reload, tactical or administrative.

-----

All that said, I am considering getting my 3" SP101 converted for 9mm moon clips. It will give me the option of shooting .38 Special, .357 Magnum or 9mm Luger in the same revolver.

 

[seldon14]

Moon clips ease and speed is greatly effected by, the number of rounds, caliber, clip, brass, and bullet, but they have the potential to be super fast. The biggest argument against them is usually how easily they can get bent depending on how they are carried.

Partial reloads on a revolver seem like a bad idea in almost any solo scenario. Even if you do it without taking your eyes off the threat, not easy, you are distracting yourself in a high stress scenario, increasing the time it takes to get back in the fight if the bad guy makes a move during your attempt, when you do get back in the fight your weapon is in an unknown condition if your reload go interrupted how many trigger pulls until you get a live round?

I could potentially see doing this if you have an armed partner or group to cover the threat while you are doing it.

A partial also means you need to be carrying single rounds, or popping them out of a clip, loader, or strip, before beginning.

I think it would be interesting to see timed as well. I feel a full reload is probably faster, and if I feel like I'm in need of a reload, I want it loaded as fast as possible. If I lose 2 or even 3 rounds to the ground so be it, if it means I have 6 in the gun sooner.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I'm going to say something controversial. I believe all revolvers should be moonclipped!
They dont effect singularly loaded rounds. Aid in extraction and insertion. They are the fastest way of speed loading a revolver. When speed is of the essence. Period.

 

[BB57]

I'm going to say something controversial. I believe all revolvers should be moonclipped!
They don't effect singularly loaded rounds. Aid in extraction and insertion. They are the fastest way of speed loading a revolver. When speed is of the essence. Period.

I don't disagree with the bit in yellow at all. Especially if it also meant standardization of moon clip thickness for various cartridges.

However, I don't agree they are the fastest way to load a revolver in all situations. 9mm, .45 ACP and round nose bullets, sure. .357 Magnum with a LSWHP or a wide meplat hollow point - maybe not. Some speedloaders are going to do the job a lot faster. Same with concealed carry. If that moon clip gets bent, it's not going to load fast, and it's possibly not going to load at all and/or not allow the crane to re-enter the frame.

 

[texmex]

When I carry a 45 ACP revolver, I have three to nine spare full moon clips on my belt. I can reload 6 much faster than a person can do a partial extraction and reload two. If there was a lull in the action, I would just eject the six mooned out of the cylinder and reload six more. I went through a tactical pistol course at a neighboring agency a few years ago. I was the only officer using a revolver. That agency issued a Sig Model 226 in 40 S&W (12 +1). I beat several of their officers on the dueling tree. They are only allowed to carry two spare magazines (37 rounds total). My normal duty load is 9 spare full moon clips plus the one in the revolver (60 rounds). One of their guys actually ran completely out of ammo. He felt pretty helpless holding his empty Sig when I popped that last plate onto his side of the dueling tree. I even use Hornady critical duty ammo because the pointy bullets fly into the cylinder. 45 ACP is much faster in moon clips than 38/357 in moon clips for me. I have had better luck with speed loaders in 38/357 especially in the 8 shot Model 627. The 5 shot 640 Pro Series seems to work pretty well with moon clips or speed loaders. Not as many bullet noses to get lined up.

 

[madmikeb]

I carry moonclipped revolvers exclusively. You just need to match case brands with the moonclips and use a bullet with a a rounded profile with the case roll crimped into the crimping groove. If you are selective about these factors they will load just fine.

I carry a 640 pro in the summer and a 7 shot 586 L comp or a 686 PC in the winter, and recently purchased a M19 carry comp that will be cut for clips by TK customs as soon as I get around to it.

I carry two spare clips in the "tech" pocket of wrangler cargo pants or shorts, I have for a few years and have never had a clip bend.

I shoot in local matches all summer and always use a moonclipped revolver, .357 mag 5, 7, or 8 shot. 6 shot 10mm, 6 shot .45 and 6 shot .44 mag so it only makes sense to me to carry what I am comfortable with and shoot quite frequently. I wouldn't carry anything else.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I don't disagree with the bit in yellow at all. Especially if it also meant standardization of moon clip thickness for various cartridges.



However, I don't agree they are the fastest way to load a revolver in all situations. 9mm, .45 ACP and round nose bullets, sure. .357 Magnum with a LSWHP or a wide meplat hollow point - maybe not. Some speedloaders are going to do the job a lot faster. Same with concealed carry. If that moon clip gets bent, it's not going to load fast, and it's possibly not going to load at all and/or not allow the crane to re-enter the frame.

Some 357 cases differ in the types of moonclips used. 357's will work on a "clip" with the right case,crimp and a RN bullet.

I'll admit, the majority of the moonclipped rounds I like, are 38 shorts, 9mm and the 45 acp. Most I load with RN bullets. And absolutely nothing faster.

We all know what a bent clip will do.

When working with a speedloader, the extra step of twisting or pushing the knob is time wasted. I still use them on revolvers I have that dont use moonclips and I'm alot slower with them. I'll usually take them if I know I can just take my time loading for shots when practicing.

 

[AtomHeartMother]

Nothing beats properly fitted moonclips for sure. I find the hks speedloaders antiquated compared to the safariland speedloaders. Just wish the latter were made for many more models. Love to see a safariland loader for my TRR8 !

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
The decision to use one reloader over another is up to the shooter
the gun/ round, and the situation.
Moon clips are the fastest,but can be bent easier and bulky...
Speed loaders are not as fast and much more bulky...
Speed strips and 1/3 [2 round] moon clips are most compact but
slower yet.
And then there are loop or 2x2x2 pouches.
If you train to empty the gun each time [ shoot till their down]
You need moon clips or speed loaders and many of them.
If you carry a large bore , you MAY use speed strips or 1/3 moon clips.
If you carry out of town or more powerful rounds , shooting 1 or 2
then top it off, loop or 2x2x2 pouches are fine.
Is I carry a harder hitting round 1 or 2 shots will most likely be
all that is needed, topping off is most likely.
If I carry a low power round , more rounds will be needed so
a full reload will be closer to correct.
The speed loader/full moon clip take as much room on the belt as another gun, just lighter.
Speed strips/`1/3 moon clips are flatter and easer to carry.
I split the difference with one speed loader and a 2x2x2 or loop loader.
If I shoot 1 or 2 [ on the trail, or a single incounter] topping off is ok.
If I dump "A Bunch" or the fight is still on [ not common] a speed loader is there.
The thing is "what round/gun are you packing and how much can "You"
carry day in and out.