Murder Scene Cleanup Question

[Texas Star]

I never see the CSI people on TV shows clean up after the crime scene, and no HazMat crews to clean up blood and other potentially toxic substances.

I know we have real cops here, some detectives, a few Feds.

How long is it before a crime scene is released to the building/home owners, and who cleans up the mess?

Kinda trying to figure how to write this in a detective novel. I need to get the heroine into a college room where a colleague was murdered, and she needs to ID some missing items. Can she come in the day after the murder, if escorted by the lead detective, and after the evidence team has left? How long would the scene normally be off limits? Who can go in?

Thanks for any help from the real experts. I'm not sure they get this stuff right on TV, anyway. How close do they come? Any crime shows stand out as more authentic than others?

I've read that the more high tech CSI stuff is rarely done, and that some juries have come to question the relative paucity of forensic evidence in some cases, because they see more of it on TV.

 

[chud333]

Can't speak of the time frame for releasing the premises back to owners but there are companies who are skilled/experts that
specialize in cleaning after a murder/suicide, etc.. where blood
and tissue removal is needed. I have a friend who is employed
by such a firm. It would'nt be for me from what he's told me he
has seen, but he makes good money doing it.


chuck

 

[Texas Star]

Can't speak of the time frame for releasing the premises back to owners but there are companies who are skilled/experts that
specialize in cleaning after a murder/suicide, etc.. where blood
and tissue removal is needed. I have a friend who is employed
by such a firm. It would'nt be for me from what he's told me he
has seen, but he makes good money doing it.


chuck

Chuck-

I wonder which is worse: what he sees, or what he smells! Both have to be bad.

 

[blujax01]

CSI Miami is my favorite: Size (0) Babes in pastel shirts, white skin tight pants and 4" heels "digging in" at the scene.

Uni's are reduced to the role of bellhop and doorman for the Crockett and Tubbs wannabe's.

Horatio always telling the detectives how to do their job, grilling suspects and catching the bad guy in the nick of time.

Yeecchh!!

 

[BUFF]

I worked my department's robbery-homicide unit for a few years, and then I ran our crime lab/forensics unit for a few more. I'll take a crack at it.

How long until a scene is released totally depends upon the circumstances of the individual crime and investigation. For a homicide, it can easily be days; a search warrant is usually written first unless it happened at a public place, then the scene has to be examined and processed. How throughly a scene is processed by the CSI's depends on what is looked for, what the lead detective or investigator wants, what capabilities the forensics people have, what the prosecutor may say, a whole lot of things.

It's really unlikely anyone besides the cops and forensics folks actually would be let into a crime scene before it is released. The more people who go in, the more things can get disturbed, the more things can be tracked in or tracked out. If the presence or absence of something in the scene mattered and a non-police person had to determine what it is, the more likely course of action would be for the detectives to get the information from that occupant/witness/whatever, and then the detective would go in and look for it.

Yes, the CSI television series have impacted the public's expectations unrealistically. Most Americans learn what they know about crime and police from televison, and we all know or should know that TV is just entertainment. I have always found the shows to be pretty funny, especially how they always can tell where a bug or rock or dirt or plant came from, which exact make/model/year of vehicle a carpet fiber or paint chip came from, how fast the test results are obtained, the data bases the CSIs have to work with and such. For one example, my crime lab had the exact same AFIS (automated fingerprint identification system) hardware the CSI shows have but they don't work anything like television- there is no big "MATCH MATCH MATCH" message instantly displayed and the photo of the print owner and his last 6 addresses and criminal history don't pop up. I only wish!

The most realistic police series on television was Barney Miller.

 

[Texas Star]

Buff-

Totally good answer! Thanks.

 

[Gray Rider]

Years ago, the late 80's or early 90's, two rookie troopers, in a neighboring patrol area, arrested a guy after he had a confrontation with his ex-girlfriend and her new live-in boyfriend. The judge set bail, which he promptly made, and he was released.

He returned to the ex's apartment with a twelve gauge, murdered the new boyfriend inside it, chased the ex outside, launched a round at her, which missed, and then was confronted by a guy walking his dog who apparently knew him. The dog walker had a set because they had a short conversation before the perpetrator leaned over his shotgun and removed most of his own skull.

Blood, bone and gore went everywhere. The building was two stories and all kinds of matter was up the side of it and even splattered under the eaves. Brain and bone was across the street. It was an unholy mess.

The two initial arresting officers responded along with a local officer from a neighboring village. I got there a few minutes later and we taped off the scene. The building was a large old house converted into an apartment building. It had a porch that was probably 6' by 20' with the street side steps of the porch being the narrow side. The victim's apartment was on the left as you walked up onto the porch with a second apartment entrance straight ahead at the end of the porch.

In this second apartment lived an elderly woman, well into her eighties, who was awoken by the initial yelling and gunshot, though she didn't realize it was a gunshot. I took her statement and this is what she told me: She got up when she heard the perpetrator and the dog walker talking and looked out her front door. She was looking at the back of the perpetrator as he was talking to the dog walker and didn't realize he even had a gun until his head exploded. I asked her what she did then and she said that it "shook her up a bit" so she made herself a cup of tea. I know men who would have probably have fainted if the same thing happened to them.

Anyway, as I'm leaving I give the old gal a business card, tell her to call me if she needs anything and she grabs my arm and very sincerely says "That's on her (victim's) end of the porch and I'm not cleaning it up!" I told her not to worry, that we'd take care of it. Cracked me up.

BTW - the mess was cleaned up by the Coroner with a garden hose and bottle of Clorox.

 

[roarindan]

A few years ago, in our little village, a young man killed himself with his 30-06, while his girlfriend was upstairs. After the body was removed the homeowners insurance paid to have the room cleaned. a couple of enterprising woman took the job, just them and a couple of buckets and sponges.

 

[oldman45]

Many times I have collected carpet, sheetrock walls, furniture and other things for crime scene evidence that will be used in a trial.

There is a local department that still has a van in which a muder took place in 1975. It is in impound. The owner has not been paid for it but lost the use of it. There are no suspects. But it is a rolling crime scene and there are things that can be discovered inside if a likely suspect is ever caught.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Those companies that clean up crime scenes - they are expensive. Many property owners don't want to pay the costs involved, and you don't necessarily get reimbursed by your insurance.

Thus it becomes more economical to get someone like Workman Guy - an ex con hired out of an ad in the paper - to clean up the blood etc. (He could also be relied upon to clean/move asbestos without any of that expensive protective gear - just a t shirt over his face - for the princely sum or eight to twelve dollars an hour.)

As a property owner, you don't want to make a deal of some place being a murder scene, esp for rentals, or have any suggestion that a crime took place.

I remember one time going into one of my friend Dan's apartments. Guy was cleaning it after the past tenants vacated. There was what looked to be a large dried blood stain on the floor and there were wear marks on the nearby radiator suggestive of someone having been chained to it.

But Dan wasn't all that curious, and reporting would mean the apartment would be vacant longer - costing him money - should there be an investigation. Thus a bit of new paint, Guy cleaned it up, and life went on.

You also see this at work in the film "American Psycho" where Christian Bale goes back to an apartment that he'd been killing people in and finds it all cleaned up and now for rent. Some people interpret that as suggesting that he imagined everything. Not the case. Dan's Dad, when he saw the movie, nailed it. He said "That's exactly right, if we found a bunch of bodies in an apartment we'd just get rid of them, clean the place up and rerent it. Think about, with a nice place like that, do you know how many millions of dollars you'd lose if it was known that a murder took place in there and the cops were all over the place?"

Talking to other slumlords over the years, I was left with the impression that this was a common way of thinking and had probably taken place from time to time.

In the building I lived, there were several raids by Swat teams and uniformed officers taking away the residents. In one case it was a gang of armed robbers, in another it was a guy dealing "commercial" quantities of cocaine, in another just general crack house activity.

No one sealed the apartments afterwards. There was no police tape, no guards placed, etc. Nor was the scene sealed at another complex when a guy tried to burn the building down with his estranged g/f and kids inside.

No one secured the house next door when Fish and Wildlife (Federal) and DNR agents raided it guns drawn. I was standing in a shared driveway at the time, and simply crouched behind the engine block of my car and smoked cigar whilst watching things. No one even asked me for ID, or even who I was, or noticed that I was (quite legally) armed. They were somewhat interested in the dead monkey that they guy had left to rot and then buried in his backyard though. Shrug.

Another time I observed a dead guy laying on the curb sprawled out in front of a liquor store. People were walking over him to go inside and get their booze. This was around 2 pm in the afternoon in broad daylight. (Someone tripped over him and he didn't twitch and he looked pretty dead...) The next day the body was gone and there was no taped off area, chalk marks, etc.

When a club owner was found Sawz-alled (the popular way to cut up bodies at the time) in the river, a small area was sealed off for about half the day as his remains were pulled out in a trash bag. It was memorable because the bag ripped an and an arm spilled out.

There was no CSI style dragnet of the area, river bank, etc.

Nor did this take place to any great extent when a severed human head was found later, other than to rule out that it wasn't a different missing head that was being sought.

The missing head belonged to a guy who'd been found seat belted in the front seat of his SUV in his own drive away. But his head happened to be missing. As far as I know, the case remains unsolved, but there was actually a police press conference held six months after the discovery. The sole announcement at this press conference was that natural causes had been ruled out. (And this was duly reported in the Lansing State Journal at the time.)

Oh and when my own car was robbed, I asked the police if they would take prints. They told me the same thing that they told a friend of mine who'd been robbed "Eh, finger prints are sort of a TV myth... You don't really find them on stuff, so we don't really bother. Even if you do, it doesn't really prove anything."

All of the above took place between 1998 and 2006 in Lansing, MI. (I left in October of that year and never returned.) And that's why I laugh at CSI shows and no longer watch them.

 

[imjin138]

In town here there is a company that does it, going to TV again I always get a kick out of CSI with the jiggle and cleavage and high heels and when they find an insect leg, wing or leave it always exsits in only on place the killers back yard.

I treid playing with my glasses like Horatio does but then I can't see. I did love Barney Miller, 'It must have been the coffee'

 

[GaryS]

First, blood is not a hazardous material. If it were, women wouldn't be able to flush their feminine hygiene products down the toilet. The danger with blood is blood borne pathogens.

The difference is the level of protective clothing needed and the level of respiratory protection.

For a scene with blood and other bodily fluids, a Tyvek suit, shoe covers, and a N95 mask, gloves, and eye protection should be sufficient. For Hazmat it's a whole lot more extensive and expensive.

I'm trained in Hazmat, although not as a technician, so I have a little bit of knowledge.

As others have pointed out, there are companies that specialize in this.

If the scene is outside, then after it's processed, at least around here, the FD is called to wash down the scene.

Different people react to this stuff different ways. For me, it's the smells that accompany death or even someone who has been ill without care for a long time. For other people it's the sights. I know one person who is bothered by neither, but if someone else at the scene starts retching, he'll vomit like Mt. Vesuvius.

In the old days, before it was banned, the old time cops carried cigars. Even if they didn't smoke, they'd light one up at the scene of a particularly smelly scene. Nowadays some people will put Vicks Vaporub or something similar on their upper lip.

Me? I just send the junior guy in to do the paperwork while I wait outside.

BTW, the most realistic medical show ever to be on TV was "Scrubs".

Barney Miller was a great show, I used to love it and wish it was on one of those retro channels.

 

[charlie sherrill]

The cleanup is left to the property owner unless it happened outside. I've had the FD wash down parking lots at bars a few times. It helps keep the patrons from slipping down and getting hurt. My Momma didn't raise me to clean up crime scenes. The worst ones are the "stinkers" who are found several days after their death. The last one of those I went to the guy had been there long enough he was coming apart. While I was there I overheard the landlord offer the new tenants the first months rent for free if they cleaned up the mess. I guess they took the deal because I later saw them dragging the matress the guy died on to their pickup. Bottom line: The cleanup is left to the property owner.

 

[Stevens]

I do remember a CSI Miami couple of episodes where one of the girls's ex got a job with the cleanup crew so he could stalk / harrass her. don't remember if it was private company or the coroners people.
Yes the gals are impressive!
Steve

 

[sigp220.45]

Lots of good answers already, but I'll chime in.

We've only paid for a crime scene cleanup one time, out of victim services funds. In that case, a 17 year old beat another guy to death with a bottle, a small TV set, and his steel toed boots. Due to the large amount of blood spatter and the fact the victim lived there and didn't do anything to contribute to his own demise, our victim specialist was able to get funds for the cleanup. I think it was about $2,500.

I recently went to a shotgun to the head suicide. The gun was a 12 gauge Mossberg pistol gripped pump, the round was a Remington foster-type slug. He was in a small bedroom, and had placed the muzzle in his mouth. The effect was spectacular. You couldn't have put a paper plate on any surface in the room and not covered blood or brains. Once we determined it was a suicide, we had no case and victim funds were not available. It was a Navajo family, and they have strongly held beliefs about being in a place where someone has died violently. They told me they planned to burn the house down and build another.

 

[JayCeeNC]

There are commercial cleanup services that will handle bloody messes. Check the Yellow Pages or contact After Disaster or similar companies.

I investigated a suicide (.22 rifle to head) in a local motel. Victim was lying on the bed, and the bed and bedclothes were soaked in blood.
I went on a week-long vacation a couple days later.
When I returned I found that our detectives had spent a couple days frantically trying to find a homicide victim after a blood-soaked mattress and sheets were found off the side of a rural road.
Yep, the motel hired some jackleg for "cleanup" and he'd just dumped the stuff nearby.

 

[Gunslinger808]

The hardest and most expensive to clean/decontaminate aren't murder scenes, but rather the Haz Mat type.
You ain't seen nothing till the bill comes due on a place where Meth was being cooked and a lab is found.
I've seen cases where the property was condemed due to contamination (thanks EPA).

The worse I've seen was a fellow ate his pistol and no one missed him for over a week in a house with no AC during the Arizona summer.
He'd pretty much decomposed into a grease spot by the time he was found, and the smell had permeated EVERYTHING. Even the pros that clean up said the toughest thing to do is get that smell out.

 

[Mickey D]

Very simple really. A little Clorox, a few throw pillows...just like home again.

 

[GaryS]

According to the county treasurer's office, the house will be cleaned and repaired and put up for sale.

They'll never get the smell out of the house.

 

[rocketdog]

Link to a local company that does "remediation."

St. Louis Trauma Services - Crime Scene Cleanup - - Homicide, Suicide and Accidental Death Cleaning Services