My 357 mag Bowling pin loads

[mtgianni]

Hate to have to beg, but would some be kind enough to PLEASE answer the 3 questions I posed in post #9?

THANKS!

1. Yes it is, considering all said previously re mass and velocity. Too fast is not your friend
2. Lower pressure should be safer
3. Any "Major Manufacturer" should print what loads they have found safe with their JHP's. Each will have different resistance causing different amounts of friction and resulting pressure. I would follow their guidelines for jacketed work if available. Only you can decide if extrapolating from published data is correct for you.

 

[m657]

Despite decades of attempts to the contrary, I simply do not shoot 357 mag very well regardless of the issuing platform or target.

re: "The recoil signatures will be different, and shooters will differ in which they prefer, but the bowling pin should react the same to both."

The secret for me has been whether I can reliably hit the little monsters. So far 44 special, 41 mag & 10mm has been my personal 'most accurate' loads, in lumbering velocities without regard to PF or FPS calculations.

Our local version has 5 pins in center of 4x8 plywood sheet @ 50' (I think), we have 6 rounds for them & a stop plate that demonstrates winner in close match. We can load 6 at a time for up to 18 total.

Once a guy brought his new 500 S&W 4". 18 shots later he had not touched any of the pins.

Personal experimentation demonstrated considerable improvement in securing pin-off-table one-hit results with 10mm vs 40 S&W standard loads with exact same lead flat point 180g.

Hot 38 special loads in the 900 fps range work better for me, as somehow I shoot them more accurately than same bullet in mid or hot 357 loading in the same gun. I must flinch for one & not the other.

 

[nachogrande]

IN WHAT UNIVERSE?

EVEN IF ALL the pins were the same brand/size/wt and have NEVER been shot, they WILL NOT react the same (as 2 "identical" shots hand held are almost impossible), throw an uneven not "PERFECTLY" level table, and used pins weighed down/lumpy/bumpy will throw off their balance. TO, please answer my questions: respectfully, do your own homework. Not only is it "impossible" for someone tell you what will work best for YOU and your gun, there's the issue of giving out load info liability,& being blamed if it didn't work well for YOU. RPG, it sounds like you guys threw "the rule book" WAY out the window. I've seen many "variations". We do a 3 gun shoot, rimfire, centerfire revolver, & centerfire semi auto. 4 tables @ 25' with 5 pins on each. On either end of the table the 2 outer pins are app 1' higher than the other pins. 1 table has a green pin that has to be hit first, and one table with a red pin that has to be hit last, with time penalties added for pins shot out of order. The table with the slowest time gets dropped & the avg time of the remaining 3 tables is your score. Want to use a high cap magazine? KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, 5 clean shots almost always win. Any table with a time of 5 seconds or less is "pretty good", Times of 15+ seconds are not uncommon. I "think" I may have cleared a few tables in the high 3's (MY VERY BEST). AVERAGE times tend to range higher 6-8ish seconds MAYBE for me. BOTTOM LINE, you will have fun regardless of what the timer says, or what gun/bullet you use.

 

[RGVshooter]

In 357 Magnum:

1. Hodgdons shows a MIN 15gr load of H110/296 @ over 1,400 fps with the 158 GR XTP.


2. would the MAX AutoComp 7 gr load be a good one for the OP's bowling pin application, and...

3rd question: Is that MIN 15 gr H110/296 "good to go" for other 158 GR JHP or SJHP's from other major bullet manufacturers, using their crimp groove to determine the OAL?

1. Yeooow! 1400fps is zipping along. I haven't loaded any 158gr XTP's using H110, only 11.9gr for the 180gr XTP.

2. If that is Winchester AutoComp I would say back it off slightly to 6.8gr.s powder. 7.0gr gives a est of 1181fps, You want at least around 1100fps for a good balance of knock down power & comfortable recoil. I mean 7.0gr would get the job done, but with more recoil.

3. When it comes to magnum loads, I would suggest sticking to exactly what the recipe calls for. If you have a different manufacturers bullet, but it's in all respects a similar design and same weight. Then I see no harm in using it but back off a few grains of powder first, shoot those to see how they work before loading up a couple hundred only to find out you might have to pull them... try it!

 

[nachogrande]

TRY A WORKAROUND

IMO you may not be able to to load the 38 special up (safely, if at all) to hit the same POA as a hot 357. YOU MAY be able to load those 357's down to safely shoot similar to the "mouse fart" 38's. Save the hot-rodded ammo for where it's needed, if such a place exists.

 

[RGVshooter]

"mouse fart" 38's.

You want a mouse fart load? I have it! Hahahahah.

I have a box of 38 cal Speer plastic wadcutter "practice bullets". I'm not sure exactly what their intended purpose is but if you just stick a standard primer in the case, NO POWDER ( ) and seat it to the case mouth of a 38 special. It is probably the most weakest round I have ever heard. It'll go out to about 20 yards or so. I did manage to hit a bowling pin with it but it noticeably bounced of it.

 

[nachogrande]

DITTO BUT...

DON'T shoot a buddy that's bigger than you in the butt with one. I DID shoot a paint can a bud was painting with & it did dent the can & send paint flying, he wasn't laughing.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks!

1. Yeooow! 1400fps is zipping along. I haven't loaded any 158gr XTP's using H110, only 11.9gr for the 180gr XTP.

2. If that is Winchester AutoComp I would say back it off slightly to 6.8gr.s powder. 7.0gr gives a est of 1181fps, You want at least around 1100fps for a good balance of knock down power & comfortable recoil. I mean 7.0gr would get the job done, but with more recoil.

3. When it comes to magnum loads, I would suggest sticking to exactly what the recipe calls for. If you have a different manufacturers bullet, but it's in all respects a similar design and same weight. Then I see no harm in using it but back off a few grains of powder first, shoot those to see how they work before loading up a couple hundred only to find out you might have to pull them... try it!

1. Point well taken: 1,400 fps is magnum.

2. Thanks: a reduction of 0.2 gr is well workable.

3. This is where the H110/296 WARNINGS come into play re: reducing the MIN load. A "few grains" reduction: does this possibly move us into the WARNINGS area? Where a specific 158gr JHP (or a SJHP, SJFP) may differ slightly from a Hornady XTP shouldn't they safely load at the crimp grove at the published powder maker's MIN?

Cheers! & THANKS!

P.S. I have a bit of H110/296 but have been waiting to better understand these reduced load WARNINGS. Only been reloading for a couple of years, multiple calibers (including three where I don't personally own the weapon: 9mm Makarov, 45 Colt and 44 Magnum), but I'm not to the point where I'm comfortable approaching published MAX loads for any caliber.

 

[m657]

nacho: guess you disagree with reply #11 where that quote originated;

the use of the falling stop plates was somebody's excellent realization timer isn't necessary for the type of match the local pin director wanted; plate is about 3-4" diameter on a ground level stand; sitting side by side, not parallel but aimed to cross the path of the other; with very close times the one that hits the bottom first is the judged the winner of that stage. If it seems a 'tie' the one on top is judged slower and heads for the double elimination loser board. Go slow twice you're out.

No matter what size magazine, only 6 per round are loaded. And yes, if you have to shoot at one twice regardless of the reason, it's likely you're going home early.

I've seen plenty of accurate 9s & 38 shooters that were not hot loads, continue to the last few brackets.

 

[Joe4d]

I like the feel of heavy 180's over 158's not as harsh.
357 brass, fed SPM, 2400 1.590 oal 180 gr MO Bullet hard cast.686 pro 5"
11.2 grs Avg 1111 SD 5.85
11.6 grs 1142fps SD 5.6

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Back many years ago when I shot pins I used 145 gr. Silver Tips in .357 magnum. (Yes, I'm old.) .38 Special just bounced off the pins even with a perfect hit. I used the old Blazer 200 gr flying ashtrays in .45 ACP. PO'd the admins who collected the brass I suspect.
Geoff
Who had to give up competition when his knee went, now my eyes are giving problems even after cataract surgery...sigh.

 

[m657]

had to give up competition when his knee went, now my eyes are giving problems even after cataract surgery...sigh.

understand.....my cataract surgery gave plenty improved vision but didn't do anything to speed me up on the firing line....drat!!!

 

[nachogrande]

NOPE!

nacho: guess you disagree with reply #11 where that quote originated;

the use of the falling stop plates was somebody's excellent realization timer isn't necessary for the type of match the local pin director wanted; plate is about 3-4" diameter on a ground level stand; sitting side by side, not parallel but aimed to cross the path of the other; with very close times the one that hits the bottom first is the judged the winner of that stage. If it seems a 'tie' the one on top is judged slower and heads for the double elimination loser board. Go slow twice you're out.

No matter what size magazine, only 6 per round are loaded. And yes, if you have to shoot at one twice regardless of the reason, it's likely you're going home early.

I've seen plenty of accurate 9s & 38 shooters that were not hot loads, continue to the last few brackets.

The only thing I disagree with, is the NEED for hyper velocity and a high PF. Actually hitting the pin matters most, IMO. The rest is just differences in how one plays the game. If you are having fun, how "wrong" can it be? I like timers cuz they are impartial, give you an actual numerical speed/time vs "you were slower/faster than the other guy. If everyone is paying the same amount of $ to play, IMO all should get the same amount of trigger time. I'm NOT SAYING my clubs way is better or worse than anothers, just that the best & worst shooters get the same chances to shoot at the same # of tables. It is more fun/inviting & tends to attract more people to give it a try, as it is not intimidating to beginners or experienced players.

 

[RGVshooter]

With the way how we do pin matches down here we just load 6 rounds, set up 5 pins, no time limit. No stopwatch, no buzzer. All we have is a RO that gives out the command to "load & make ready", "shooter on the ___ ready?" "shooter on the ___ are you ready?" "shooters......Fire!"


Then it's whoever clears the most pins. If there's a tie, then the pins stay and we load up another 6 rounds and at the start it's "sudden death".


But remember guys. We stagger the pins. I mean we cut the top 6" off the pins and stagger them, 3 pin bodies, and two pin tops. At 15-17 yards. it's not as easy as one would think. To shoot at a 6" tall by 2" wide target at 45 feet with full power 357 magnum with only a few tries. I've been doing this for years with a revolver and yes, on a good day i can clear the table.

Here's a photo of one of my 148 grain 38 special wadcutter loaded up with 2.7gr Titegroup. The point is, try to find a balance of knock down power and good recoil management for a quick and accurate follow up shot. By the way, I took this shot at 45' with a 4" heavy barrel model 10-8. (yes, this pin went flying 3' behind the table) lol

 

[BigBill]

I tested reloads in my '75 colt Python and the best reload I came up with for pin point accuracy was the 140gr Speer jhp using 2400 powder.

 

[RGVshooter]

Fast forward to June 2018 and to date my favorite 357 load has been using Berry's 158gr plated flat point bullets, 13.9gr H110, winchester small pistol magnum primers or CCI 550 and a COL of 1.590". Chrono'd at a 5 shot average of 1136fps.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Just picked up 500# of those Berry's...

Fast forward to June 2018 and to date my favorite 357 load has been using Berry's 158gr plated flat point bullets, 13.9gr H110, winchester small pistol magnum primers or CCI 550 and a COL of 1.590". Chrono'd at a 5 shot average of 1136fps.

Still trying to figure this out: wondering whether the 6.8gr of AutoComp you graciously recommended for a 158gr (on your post from 4/10) doesn't get us to the approximately 1,100fps but by using 1/2 as much powder?

Half as much (by weight) of any powder for the same basic result doubles the number of loads per lb. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the published reduced load warning as they apply to the 296/H110 twins. What is the advantage of using one of them over the other more... "Economical"(?) powder choices?

I'm not trying to be argumentative in the slightest degree: both powders meter pretty much the same, so it is not a "ball vs. flake (800-X)" choice... I guess there's the "dirty vs. clean" question, but my experience is they both burn a lot the same in other loadings.

I truly appreciate the value of those more experienced on this forum.

Cheers!