Wyatt Earp
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I have found the accuracy out of 2-piece barrels, at least in .38 Special/-.357 Magnum, to be outstanding.
The design is sound and makes perfect sense.
My name is Red, and I Own an IL Revolver...
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The design is sound and makes perfect sense.
VAdoublegunner
Member
That's actually very interesting about the 2-piece barrel accuracy. I haven't seen enough of them in wide use to form an opinion about their accuracy, or perhaps the shooters I saw using them needed more practice
. I guess the design concept is similar to the Dan Wesson, a revolver that always had a very good reputation for accuracy. Have there been many reports of failures?
I have an IL revolver. I fixed it. I don't need to talk about it. Anyone who has one can do anything he wants with it. I wouldn't carry an unmodified one for defensive purposes, but that's just me. You don't have to carry a gun at all, if you don't want to.
Wyatt Earp
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I haven't heard of one. But I have seen photos of a Sako 75 whose barrel split at the chamber, so anything's possible.
Mickstix
Member
Failures of the barrel or Internal Lock? No idea on the barrel, but there used to be a 21 page thread full of Internal Lock induced failures. (May of been more pages, I just seem to recall it being 21) But that thread, as well as the Revolver "FAQ" thread (and possibly others) seems to be gone from the site since the splitting of the forums..
hitecrednek
Member
^that made sense to do...is the forum now getting sponsor money from S&W?
girvin02
Member
Thanks for that information. I wish that they had made a 3 1/2" version, in 2000. Still, that 4" is pretty close. Only 100 made, eh? Guess I'll set my sights on a 6-shot.
Sgt 127
Member
What he said.
I own two MIM guns. They are exceptional guns. I own an HK USPc with a lock. Hidden inside the mag well. I really don't care if its there. Actually, I didn't even KNOW it was there until I saw the key and read the owners manual. I do not own a S&W with a lock, and, doubt I will, its not attractive to me. If I wanted a new Ford F150, and, it was only available in purple, and, I hate purple, would people tell me to get over it and buy the purple truck? Tell me about the purple truck they have and how happy they are with it? If I posted and said, I really hate purple Ford F-150's, I wish they made them in other colors, would people come on the forum and tell me that purple trucks are here to stay, get over it, and, its easy to repaint it if you don't like it. After you own it for awhile, you will get used to the purple, it doesn't affect how it works at all.
I wonder, is there even a hint of a debate at Smith right now about getting rid of the lock? Do they see thier Classics at CDNN right now being blown out for $450 off of retail and wonder, if they didn't have the lock, would we have sold more of them? Does Smith and Wesson monitor this forum? Are they waiting for the "I hate the lock" threads to die off so they can sit smugly and say, "See? I told you they would get used to them."
Wheelgunner840
Member
From reading every single reply in this thread, I have only two things to say.
First. Congrats on your new gun Red, it is a beauty, and if it shoots as good as it looks, you have every right to be proud of it. I wish you the best of luck with it.
Secondly. If S&W is now producing guns like Reds that are vastly superior in manufacturing and engineering compared to older pre-lock models, can you imagine how fast they would be flying off the shelves if they just got rid of the darn lock?
Why don't they just produce them both ways. With the IL for those States that won't allow it to be imported without it, and without the stupid, ugly, useless thing for the rest of us?
What they would make in sales would surely pay for the dual manufacturing costs.
WG840
First. Congrats on your new gun Red, it is a beauty, and if it shoots as good as it looks, you have every right to be proud of it. I wish you the best of luck with it.
Secondly. If S&W is now producing guns like Reds that are vastly superior in manufacturing and engineering compared to older pre-lock models, can you imagine how fast they would be flying off the shelves if they just got rid of the darn lock?
Why don't they just produce them both ways. With the IL for those States that won't allow it to be imported without it, and without the stupid, ugly, useless thing for the rest of us?
What they would make in sales would surely pay for the dual manufacturing costs.
WG840
Red...looks like you put some "pre-lock" stocks on that beauty.
Landric
Member
My name is Landric. I hate the lock, both as S&W has made it, and the idea in general. I don't own a single firearm with an internal lock. I've personally experienced a lock failure, so I'm not going on internet hype alone.
I don't like the MIM parts, not for any functional reason, I just think they look "wrong". I don't like the frame mounted firing pin, both because the S&W hammer needs the firing pin there to make it look "right" and because I have seen several of the frame mounted pin guns that were completely stock fail to fire due to light strikes.
All that said, I just placed a bid on a Thunder Ranch 21-4. If I "win" it will be my first S&W IL gun. Other than the lock zit, its a beautiful gun. Its also just what I want, a N-frame, fixed sight, six shot .44 Special.
Once I get it (this one or another, I'm getting one) and make sure it works, I'll remove the IL. Perhaps I can plug the hole using directions on this site.
None of this changes my position on the lock, but the 21-4 (and the 22-4, if all goes well with the 21-4, I'm getting a 22-4 also) are just too good looking to pass up.
There isn't much in the current S&W catalog that interests me. I expect the huge majority of my S&W purchases in the future will be pre-lock/MIM used guns. However, the 21-4 and 22-4 meets some "needs" (wants) I have better than anything else available. For that, I'm willing to give current S&W revolvers a try (at last).
I don't like the MIM parts, not for any functional reason, I just think they look "wrong". I don't like the frame mounted firing pin, both because the S&W hammer needs the firing pin there to make it look "right" and because I have seen several of the frame mounted pin guns that were completely stock fail to fire due to light strikes.
All that said, I just placed a bid on a Thunder Ranch 21-4. If I "win" it will be my first S&W IL gun. Other than the lock zit, its a beautiful gun. Its also just what I want, a N-frame, fixed sight, six shot .44 Special.
Once I get it (this one or another, I'm getting one) and make sure it works, I'll remove the IL. Perhaps I can plug the hole using directions on this site.
None of this changes my position on the lock, but the 21-4 (and the 22-4, if all goes well with the 21-4, I'm getting a 22-4 also) are just too good looking to pass up.
There isn't much in the current S&W catalog that interests me. I expect the huge majority of my S&W purchases in the future will be pre-lock/MIM used guns. However, the 21-4 and 22-4 meets some "needs" (wants) I have better than anything else available. For that, I'm willing to give current S&W revolvers a try (at last).
Wyatt Earp
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Landric, don't forget to order a firing pin kit from Apex Tactical when you win your 21.
Then change the firing pin while you have the gun open to remove the lock. The Apex pin has a longer travel than the S&W pin (which was made shorter to help pass California drop tests), but still stops on the firing pin stop pin. Cylinder & Slide makes a longer firing pin, but it bottoms out on the firing pin bushing so it cannot be dry-fired without the use of dummy ammo.
The Apex cured the occasional FTF that my 65-8 suffered. My 637-2, however, has never failed to go bang in nearly 1200 rounds so it retains its stock pin.
Then change the firing pin while you have the gun open to remove the lock. The Apex pin has a longer travel than the S&W pin (which was made shorter to help pass California drop tests), but still stops on the firing pin stop pin. Cylinder & Slide makes a longer firing pin, but it bottoms out on the firing pin bushing so it cannot be dry-fired without the use of dummy ammo.
The Apex cured the occasional FTF that my 65-8 suffered. My 637-2, however, has never failed to go bang in nearly 1200 rounds so it retains its stock pin.
Frank V
Member
Red, congratulations on a fine new gun, hope it gives years of faithfull service & I'm betting it will. Frank
Landric, I agree with you 100+%. I, too, am going to get a 21-4, BECAUSE they are only available with the IL(for a affordable price anyways). I absolutely LOVE a 4 inch fixed sight N frame. I will not be buying any other Smiths that I can get pre-lock such as M64,65,66,29,27,57,58 or others. Especially nickle or stainless guns where the zit screams out "look at me". Blue only for me, others are entitled to have what they like.
Are you getting the "Classic" or the other 21? AFAIK there are 2 M21's.
DonD
Member
I guess I don't understand the outlook of the IL/MIM/often stainless steel haters.
If you don't like them, don't buy them.
I don't put posts on this forum complaining about older guns and questioning the intelligence of those who buy used and seek out pinned and recessed. Why? Because their tastes in revolvers are valid. Why not adopt the same attitude toward those who are happy to accept ILs/MIM for the other good aspects that come with new generations S&W revolvers. And yes, there are good points. Don
If you don't like them, don't buy them.
I don't put posts on this forum complaining about older guns and questioning the intelligence of those who buy used and seek out pinned and recessed. Why? Because their tastes in revolvers are valid. Why not adopt the same attitude toward those who are happy to accept ILs/MIM for the other good aspects that come with new generations S&W revolvers. And yes, there are good points. Don
I don't know about all others, but for myself and some others, I can explain. Since we happen to be aware that there is a very serious safety issue with the IL on a defensive revolver, we bring it up to people who seem not to be aware of it. I have no reason to discuss the issue with someone who is aware of it, and I don't. But there are plenty of folks new to these forums who are not aware that occasionally an S&W revolver with an IL will lock up all by itself (apparently as result of recoil), and cannot be fired. This may be annoying on a sport or target pistol. It may be a lot worse than annoying on a defensive pistol. I feel that if I know this and see someone who doesn't know it, it is my responsibility to let him know about it. After that, it's up to him.
Now do you understand the outlook of some IL haters?
stevieboy
Member
I've been a participant on this forum for about a year and I've read dozens of the "it will lock up all by itself" posts. So far, no one has explained how that can happen. On my lock-equipped Smiths it takes positive pressure with the key to turn the lock. The lock isn't difficult to engage, but it takes a definite effort to bring it into play. The lock sits there, independent of any other part. So, explain to me: how does "recoil" make the lock engage all by itself? Then, after you've given me that explanation, explain the (apparently earnest) claims by a few that the lock engages when their gun is dry fired?
My point, obviously, is that the story of the self-engaging lock strikes me as another urban legend. I'm not saying it can't happen. In the world of modern tools and appliances just about anything can happen, I suppose. But, after reading dozens of these tales, I'm still not persuaded how it DOES happen. And, absent a logical explanation I'm simply unpersuaded that the self-engaging lock is a meaningful problem. I await the explanation.
My point, obviously, is that the story of the self-engaging lock strikes me as another urban legend. I'm not saying it can't happen. In the world of modern tools and appliances just about anything can happen, I suppose. But, after reading dozens of these tales, I'm still not persuaded how it DOES happen. And, absent a logical explanation I'm simply unpersuaded that the self-engaging lock is a meaningful problem. I await the explanation.
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