My new .455 HE 2nd Model

[pd1964]

Picked up this old girl the other day. Dates to 1916 and has the original grips numbered to the gun & British markings.
Decent shape for 102 years old:
2 by Paul Dubois, on Flickr
1 by Paul Dubois, on Flickr
3 by Paul Dubois, on Flic

 

[Andy Lowry]

Lawdy! That sure is fine. Where did you find such a thing? Is there a .455HE shop near you? If so, I need to get out more.

 

[steelslaver]

Really nice, Some high ranking desk jockey or someone similar must have gotten that one. Mine is pretty decent, but not close to yours in condition.

 

[glowe]

I love 455s and that is a nice one. Is there any way you could take a few pictures of the stamping on the revolver. I assume it was a Canadian military gun, and it would be interesting to see the type of stamps placed on a known gun from Canada.

 

[Jack Flash]

I too would like to see close ups of the British markings. (The OP says they are British, and I can make out a Broad Arrow at the top of the column of markings on the left side rear of the frame above the stocks. The column looks like the typical marks applied at the Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield.) Of course if it has a Broad Arrow enclosed within a C, that would show Canadian ownership.

I noticed some wavy lines under the S&W logo on the sideplate, which I thought may be some type of inscription. Enlarged, the lines look like scratches / holster wear / mild corrosion. Overall, that is a beauty.

 

[Absalom]

I too would like to see close ups of the British markings. (The OP says they are British, and I can make out a Broad Arrow at the top of the column of markings on the left side rear of the frame above the stocks. The column looks like the typical marks applied at the Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield.) Of course if it has a Broad Arrow enclosed within a C, that would show Canadian ownership.
...

The rear frame markings set does indeed fit the standard Enfield pattern, and the corresponding crossed-pennants military proof appears visible on the frame in front of the cylinder, so it at least started out as a British gun. The Canadian arrow-in-a-C would appear by itself, and can be found in various locations.

 

[pd1964]

I was told by the previous owner there was only the British markings no Canadian. The 3 on the left side are the only markings.

 

[pd1964]

markings by Paul Dubois, on Flickr

 

[pd1964]

markings2 by Paul Dubois, on Flickr

Actually these are Canadian markings according to the catalog. But no arrow in a C.

 

[Valmet]

Congrats on the acquisition- I love those old .455s

 

[Absalom]

markings2 by Paul Dubois, on Flickr

Actually these are Canadian markings according to the catalog. But no arrow in a C.

What catalog? Those are the standard British military proofs applied at Enfield.

And since it has the broad arrow without the C at the top of the acceptance marks, it was British, not Canadian property. I believe examples of guns that later transferred into Canadian service and have an additional stamp somewhere, like on the butt, are known, although uncommon, and I have no references.

 

[steelslaver]

Here is mine

and here is a first model 455

 

[Absalom]

Here is mine

Do you know the meaning of what looks like a Roman numeral II at the bottom? That’s the only part of the Enfield stamp I’m not familiar with.

 

[pd1964]

What catalog? Those are the standard British military proofs applied at Enfield.

And since it has the broad arrow without the C at the top of the acceptance marks, it was British, not Canadian property. I believe examples of guns that later transferred into Canadian service and have an additional stamp somewhere, like on the butt, are known, although uncommon, and I have no references.

In the S&W catalog it says "Inset shows typical military markings including Canadian crossed penants..."

 

[Texas Star]

Lawdy! That sure is fine. Where did you find such a thing? Is there a .455HE shop near you? If so, I need to get out more.

He's from Alberta. Doesn't that famous Edmonton mall have shops for about anything?

 

[Texas Star]

Do you know the meaning of what looks like a Roman numeral II at the bottom? That’s the only part of the Enfield stamp I’m not familiar with.

Variously interpreted to mean MK II/Second Model HE or MK II .455 ammo. But they also fire MK I ammo and .455 Colt which was loaded in the longer MK I length case.

 

[Absalom]

In the S&W catalog it says "Inset shows typical military markings including Canadian crossed penants..."

Found it. No disrespect to the authors, but that’s not correct as such. I cannot state positively that the Canadians did not also use that proof, but in conjunction with the Enfield acceptance stamp on your gun, denoted by the E in the stamp, which attests to the gun’s physical presence in Britain, your gun’s pennant proof is British.

There is another picture insert in the catalog, p. 166, that says “typical Brit military markings”; shown is a nice set of Australian FTR stampings, not a Brit marking anywhere. I tried to get them to correct that for the last edition, unsuccessfully.

 

[pd1964]

Found it. No disrespect to the authors, but that’s not correct as such. I cannot state positively that the Canadians did not also use that proof, but in conjunction with the Enfield acceptance stamp on your gun, denoted by the E in the stamp, which attests to the gun’s physical presence in Britain, your gun’s pennant proof is British.

There is another picture insert in the catalog, p. 166, that says “typical Brit military markings”; shown is a nice set of Australian FTR stampings, not a Brit marking anywhere. I tried to get them to correct that for the last edition, unsuccessfully.

Okay that goes along with what I was told all British markings.

 

[Hondo44]

Variously interpreted to mean MK II/Second Model HE or MK II .455 ammo. But they also fire MK I ammo and .455 Colt which was loaded in the longer MK I length case.

The II is only found on the “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” and refers to the gun which the British referenced as the MK II.

THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks. “When” roll marked with the cal., those that are roll marked are only marked S&W 455 because all three versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the “455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped “II” on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.


The three versions are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455, serial number range.

*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.

There’s also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5462 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5462 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.


3.A. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.

The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].


3.B. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock'. “As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

 

[jebstuart]

All of the mark's on the OP's revolver are indeed British. A Canadian Military Acceptance mark is shown on the following .455 Mk II (2nd model) and is struck heavily at 12:00. This revolver was accepted into British service at the Royal Arms Factory at Enfield. It was then resubmitted to Enfield for inspection and marked by a different inspector with a different set of stamps and issued to The Argyle Light Infantry (Canadian), the 34th .455 Mk II to be so issued. When deassessioned from the A.L.I., the Mark's were struck and it was issued to The Royal Military College (Canada). At some point (probably 75 years or so ago), it walked away from the R.M.C., rack #4, revolver #23 never to return. After its exit from the R.M.C., some knowledgeable gunsmith correctly recessed the cylinder chambers allowing it fire .45 LC and remain chambered for the original British .455 Eley. That's the best I can put it together at this point.

I also own and have seen several examples that were shipped to the Canadian Government in Ottawa (not necessarily to the military) with only one mark on the butt. It's a Crown over 30 mark and no other markings. These seem to be in excellent condition, almost without exception.

Crown over 30 butt mark only, almost new with only a partial cylinder ring: