My SD thinking is evolving, too

[ISCS Yoda]

My SD thinking is evolving....

That thread got me thinking about some other issues of the day. There is a story in today's news about 3 people being killed in a Walmart's shopping center in Oklahoma. It is an Associated Press story and easy to find. I usually follow the S&W Forum's copyright rules by posting the URL, maybe a quote or two, and so forth, but this article from AP includes the following:

Copyright 2019 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

I have asked a very experience First Amendment/copyright lawyer if this copyright statement interferes with the usual "fair use" rules as allowed by the courts and this Forum. I'll post that answer when I get it.

Meanwhile, you can search for the story easily enough.

My point about evolving self defense thinking is that I believe that I am going to have to abandon my usual carry mode of a J frame or a sub-compact 9mm in my pants pocket. I need better access to my guns and belt carry will give me that.

Comments solicited.

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PS:

I did the homework for you. I knew someone else had to have this story. CBS is less threatening on the subject:

Walmart shooting: Three dead in murder-suicide outside Duncan, Oklahoma Walmart today - live updates - CBS News


© 2019 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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Comments still solicited, not on the news story but the carry options.

 

[delcrossv]

Three Dead in Shooting at Oklahoma Walmart: Police

Turns out it was a domestic. Armed citizen approached prompting shooter to commit suicide.

If it weren't for the media trying to stir things up over OK's new permitless carry, it never would have made the news.

 

[Protected One]

I have always felt that belt carry was the preferred method vs pocket carry. For one thing, I need all my pockets for carrying the various non-gun items that travel with me daily. Also, in some instances that additional time required to retrieve a gun from my pocket MIGHT make a difference in the outcome of the encounter. (I'm not one to walk around with my hand in my pocket)

For me, the exception would be in the fall or winter months where I might carry in my jacket/coat pocket because my hands are more likely to be in my pocket anyway.

 

[ContinentalOp]

After reading the linked articles, I have a few thoughts.

I don't like pocket carry. I do in rare circumstances when belt carry isn't feasible. I practice drawing from different positions, and pocket carry sucks if you have to draw while sitting, moving, or nearly any position other than standing still, not to mention if you're forced to draw with the opposite hand. Carrying in a jacket pocket may be an exception, but it's not something I do so I'll defer to those that do.

Being in a car leaves one vulnerable, especially in a packed parking lot. I carry at about 3:30, IWB, which makes drawing while in a car awkward and slow. This is the primary reason I started carrying a snub in an ankle holster as a BUG. I can get to it quicker and easier than my belt carried gun. A pocket carried gun would be virtually inaccessible, unless you remove it and put it somewhere accessible when you get in your car. If I have to draw with my weak hand, ankle carry is still easier than pocket carry.

Prevention is worth mentioning. I'm usually looking around when I go to my car, see who's there, what they're doing, etc. It's possible the victims didn't pay attention to their surroundings. It's also possible they did and got in the car to get away. The articles weren't exactly clear on that possibility.

Also, this is a good reason to back into parking spaces. I try to do that whenever possible. It makes it easier to drive away quickly if the opportunity is there. On a similar note, I try to avoid sitting in my parked car for too long. I want to get in my car and go. Like I said, being in a car can leave you vulnerable.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[lrrifleman]

If you are referring to pants pocket carry, about the only handgun that I could do that with is probably a Colt Junior, anything else would print. To be honest, it is more the cut of my jeans and my build (post-accident). If you are referring to either jacket or cost pocket carry, I could possibly get away pocket carrying a sub-compact or a snub.

After engaging in some self-defense training earlier this month, I am pretty certain that when I can legally carry, it will either be OWN or OWB, unless I am doing a significant amount of driving, then I will carry in a shoulder holster. Walking with a cane and drawing requires that I have a little more flexibility in how I carry.

 

[white cloud]

I really like pocket carry (I have experienced two incidents where pocket carry was very important). However if I am going to drive or sit, I switch to AIWB. I know that I am crazy.

That said, I think working on awareness is what is most important to me. I also think I need to start carrying some OC spray.

 

[Ziggy2525]

After reading the linked articles, I have a few thoughts.

I don't like pocket carry. I do in rare circumstances when belt carry isn't feasible. I practice drawing from different positions, and pocket carry sucks if you have to draw while sitting, moving, or nearly any position other than standing still, not to mention if you're forced to draw with the opposite hand. Carrying in a jacket pocket may be an exception, but it's not something I do so I'll defer to those that do.

Being in a car leaves one vulnerable, especially in a packed parking lot. I carry at about 3:30, IWB, which makes drawing while in a car awkward and slow. This is the primary reason I started carrying a snub in an ankle holster as a BUG. I can get to it quicker and easier than my belt carried gun. A pocket carried gun would be virtually inaccessible, unless you remove it and put it somewhere accessible when you get in your car. If I have to draw with my weak hand, ankle carry is still easier than pocket carry.

Prevention is worth mentioning. I'm usually looking around when I go to my car, see who's there, what they're doing, etc. It's possible the victims didn't pay attention to their surroundings. It's also possible they did and got in the car to get away. The articles weren't exactly clear on that possibility.

Also, this is a good reason to back into parking spaces. I try to do that whenever possible. It makes it easier to drive away quickly if the opportunity is there. On a similar note, I try to avoid sitting in my parked car for too long. I want to get in my car and go. Like I said, being in a car can leave you vulnerable.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Which ankle holster are using and how’s it working out?

 

[URIT]

I prefer to belt-carry and like guns, Gen3 compacts, which I feel are too heavy to pocket carry.

I use an open-top, clip-on holster with no cant that works great in many different positions on my belt. I usually have it at 2 just ahead of my hip bone or at 10 for X-draw. It works great and I can reposition it with my hand in my pocket most times. It goes on fast and comes off fast.

Good luck with your rethink.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have always felt that belt carry was the preferred method vs pocket carry. For one thing, I need all my pockets for carrying the various non-gun items that travel with me daily. Also, in some instances that additional time required to retrieve a gun from my pocket MIGHT make a difference in the outcome of the encounter. (I'm not one to walk around with my hand in my pocket)

For me, the exception would be in the fall or winter months where I might carry in my jacket/coat pocket because my hands are more likely to be in my pocket anyway.

Why would you feel the need to walk around with your hand in your pocket?
You don't walk around with your hand on your holstered gun, do you.
An advantage of pocket carry is that you can have your gun in your hand if a potentially bad situation comes up without anyone knowing that is what you are doing until the need to shoot or show your gun comes up.

 

[Echo40]

I pocket carry my BUG, which is a Ruger LCP in a pocket holster. That being said, I wear cargo pants with velcro-secured pockets, and my primary carry is secured in a belt holster.

 

[Rudi]

These days if a kid shoots his eye out with a Red Rider BB Gun the media will blow it up. The shooting in OK was a domestic, not a "mass shooting at Walmart". The one in Cal. most certainly looks like a gang war. The cops will be hard pressed to get much out of the survivors. Asian gangs "don't exist". Very seldom does anyone give up any info in these cases. The LA school shooting on Friday is already out of the news since an AR15 was not used. Any one know how many were shot in Chicago over the weekend? Another story that doesn't fit the narrative. Sorry, but this stuff really cheeses me off.

 

[CB3]

Thanks for another thread on this topic. I have been evolving also. I am unqualified to pass judgment on pocket carry because I simply will not do it. From hundreds of posts on this forum I know it is very popular. In isolation, not compared to other methods of carry, I understand why people think they like it.

But have they really tried alternate methods? Some have, I’m sure. Many appear not to have done so. Nonetheless, I respect everyone else’s right to their opinions, priorities and choices.

I appreciate there are different needs and environments for primary carry. Not everyone can or should carry the same equipment the same way. Not everyone has the same body shape or physical abilities.

If truly, what you think works for you and you really, really practice with live fire, stress and a timer with shooting accuracy I get it. It works for you. Pocket carry has been around since small handguns were invented. But it automatically limits many of your carry decisions to levels I cannot accept.

I have tried lots of other methods of carry. I have been through eight different iterations of guns in five different calibers. I am now 70 and have carried concealed for over 25 years. I have had about 2 dozen different holsters.

I have settled on a full size 9mm M&P in a Kydex AIWB holster. There are many threads as to the advantages. These same threads mention disadvantages, primarily that the carrier will shoot himself in very dangerous places. I get that fear. I had it. Yet in actually trying it safely with my air soft replica and unloaded gun, following advice from experienced AIWB carriers, I found the advantages to outweigh every other form of carry, for me. I respect the seriousness of pointing the gun near my crotch, but it is easy to holster slowly and carefully and to mount the holster in such a way that if I didn’t properly clear the path (Clearing is easy to do because it is so visible) and I experienced a ND, it would miss all my flesh. Lots of different clothing covers work to conceal the gun.

Now, when I wear a tucked shirt, like with a suit and tie, and I want to remove my coat, I choose not to go with a belt mounted tuckable. I have used Thunderwear for over 20 years in such situations, currently with a Shield (10+1 and a 10 round backup mag). It is deep cover AIWB and is more readily available, with either hand, than an ankle holster, pocket carry, small of the back, or tucked carry elsewhere on a belt. We can have a whole other thread on that type of carry, but the OP asked for recommendations, and I highly recommend these two types of carry for the greatest commonality, concealment and access.

I do want to carry the largest gun I can with the highest capacity in 9mm. I want to carry a spare mag and a fixed blade knife. Both these methods allow me to do so. Mounted up front these tools are available to either hand. They are easier to defend against a grab. They are easier to conceal the draw stroke. They don’t print. They are secure.

I was an unarmed attendee in one gun fight. I got out of the line of fire unscathed. Both combatants emptied their primary guns, a six shot revolver and a five shot 12 ga. Neither had additional ammo. Each slightly wounded the other at about 20 yards. That was 1973. I learned many lessons from that one fight. The most important one? Statistics of the average gunfight don’t apply to me. I make my carry decisions based not on what is most “likely”, comfortable or convenient, but on what would be most effective in the worst situation. That’s the Boy Scout in me.

Now that I can be armed, I’m going to be armed and have a competent gun accessible while seated, while running, while rolling on the ground, all the time. I have experienced no downside to elevating my carry decisions to this level. I am not paranoid nor fearful; just comfortably prepared. For me, there is no more effort to these types of carry than any other, but the benefits are greater.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Which ankle holster are using and how’s it working out?

I've been using the Wilderness Tactical nylon/elastic ankle holster for maybe 5 months or so with a 642. I really like it. It was my first ankle holster and I adjusted to it pretty well in a very short time, but that's probably because I've been carrying a trauma kit in an ankle holster for a few years now (FYI, I still carry a trauma kit on my other ankle, also in a Wilderness Tactical holster). It's comfortable enough that I've even worn it while hiking.

Accessibility was better than I thought. It has pretty much the same limitations as the pocket holster except when sitting and, if you can move your leg, lying on your back or side.

Type of pants can be a factor, like with pocket carry. I wear jeans probably 99.9% of the time (if I'm wearing pants other than jeans, it probably means I have to be somewhere I can't carry). They're straight leg jeans, so probably not the best choice, but they work alright for me. I wear them probably about an inch or so too long, so they bunch a bit around the ankles. Maybe not fashionable, but it hides my ankle gear fairly well. I did have to work out two- and one-handed draw methods that work with it. Of course, for the BUG role in the car I can pull my pants leg up and have the gun exposed for even quicker access, but then I have to remember to cover up when I get out of the car.

Speaking of cars, the only issue I've been having is a tendency to hit the gun on the door sill when getting in and out of the car.

If you're considering ankle carry, just be cognizant of its limitations. Like with most types of carry, you probably won't really know if it's for you or not without trying it.

I hope that helps.

 

[rosewood]

I like belt carry best, but do pocket carry when belt isn't feasible. I recently discovered what is called a "traveler's" vest. Have several pockets and are light to not make you too hot. It covers up your weapon quite nicely and way better than a loose shirt. Also, you can carry a full size gun concealed with the vest. Those extra pockets also are good for the extra magazine, a good flashlight and many have the breast pocket that is perfect for the cell phone and even sunglasses. Takes weight off the belt also.

In the vehicle, I always have a second gun. In my car, I have a mount by my right leg that is hidden by my leg when driving that keeps that gun handy, so I am not worried about the one on my hip. I keep one in case just under my feet in my truck, been meaning to do some sort of mount in my truck, but haven't yet. Draw from the holster isn't a problem in my truck with the bench seat anyway. If you don't want to leave your firearm in the vehicle, you can always have the vehicle mount, put the gun in that holster when in vehicle and re-holster on your belt before you get out.

Rosewood

 

[Old cop]

I began carrying concealed in my 1968 rookie year, usually IWB/appendix, until it became too uncomfortable. Belt carry, while probably best, is too limiting if I want to keep my gun concealed in my normal mode of dress. For me pocket carry works best, even w/all its limitations, so that’s what I use pretty much all the time.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I've been using the Wilderness Tactical nylon/elastic ankle holster for maybe 5 months or so with a 642. I really like it. It was my first ankle holster and I adjusted to it pretty well in a very short time, but that's probably because I've been carrying a trauma kit in an ankle holster for a few years now (FYI, I still carry a trauma kit on my other ankle, also in a Wilderness Tactical holster). It's comfortable enough that I've even worn it while hiking.

Accessibility was better than I thought. It has pretty much the same limitations as the pocket holster except when sitting and, if you can move your leg, lying on your back or side.

Type of pants can be a factor, like with pocket carry. I wear jeans probably 99.9% of the time (if I'm wearing pants other than jeans, it probably means I have to be somewhere I can't carry). They're straight leg jeans, so probably not the best choice, but they work alright for me. I wear them probably about an inch or so too long, so they bunch a bit around the ankles. Maybe not fashionable, but it hides my ankle gear fairly well. I did have to work out two- and one-handed draw methods that work with it. Of course, for the BUG role in the car I can pull my pants leg up and have the gun exposed for even quicker access, but then I have to remember to cover up when I get out of the car.

Speaking of cars, the only issue I've been having is a tendency to hit the gun on the door sill when getting in and out of the car.

If you're considering ankle carry, just be cognizant of its limitations. Like with most types of carry, you probably won't really know if it's for you or not without trying it.

I hope that helps.

Thanks. Great info.

 

[delcrossv]

I'll pocket carry J frames (940 and 342). Anything bigger like the 66 or one of the semiautomatics- just because it's a semi- (P232, Rami) goes on the belt.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

All interesting comments. For the record, I have pocket carried a handgun since the early 1980s. For years it was a Beretta 950BS .25 ACP. Yes, yes, a mousegun, but it went everywhere and was well concealed, especially prior to the CHL law passing here in Texas. The fun part of this is that I used to dress in a suit and tie every day so all suits went to the tailor to have the left front, inside breast pocket removed and replaced with denim. That little gun could wear out a silk lining really quickly but it was fine in hard to wear out denim.

After I got a CHL and because I wear a vest every day and no suit coat I chose either belt or pocket carry for small guns like J frames and snubby K frames and CS-type Smith & Wesson pistols. But as time goes on I am starting to become a believer in the need for more firepower so a compact 9mm on my belt with a spare magazine available sounds like the way to go.

A CS-9 or a Walther CCP will fill that role.

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A side note on the copyright issue I raised above. I got a legal opinion from a highly rated First Amendment/copyright attorney. Easy to get, for free, because he's my twin brother. And he is highly rated, believe me. 40 years in the entertainment law business with the biggest names on TV.

Anyway, what he told me about using the AP story comports with the S&W Forum rules on quoting sources, to wit:

Under fair use you can repeat the story. Even word for word. You can even use it as a source for a story you’re reporting. You just can’t copy it and republish it. And if you do refer to it in a news report you credit AP.

That's exactly what Forum rules require. Lee and the moderators got good advice way back when.......