Mystery Gun- What is it?

I've been following this thread, like many others, for some time. The additional pictures are rather conclusive evidence that this is a genuine S&W product.

I know I don't have the credentials of many of my more learned compatriots regarding S&W esoterica, but let me quote from my previous post:

VERY interesting revolver. My guess is that it's an experimental single action from S&W, pre-dating the Model 1902 Hand Ejector, when the forward lock was initiated. Similar enough to the Model 1899 Hand Ejector in that respect.

I feel vindicated!!! It's an exceptional piece, and may be one of a kind, making it extremely valuable. This needs to go into the next SCSW. I'll start the bidding at $100!

John
 
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Lee,

Point taken!! I will have to agree that the Patent does state "Improvements" in the text!! So I suppose my question should be, if that isn't a True Patent for a Side-Swinging Cylinder, how was one able to improve on a Patent that wasn't originally issued to them?? Or is the addition of features that weren't specified in the Original Patent the way Early Firearms Manufacturers circumvented pre-existing Patents for their own use to prevent Patent Infringement problems??
 
Masterpiece said:
Goony,

With regards to your statement above, I do agree that more information needs to be found to document this Revolver in the company's history!! The point I'm trying to make is that I believe the newest information has, within a reasonable doubt, certainly assured us it is a (*~S&W~*)!!

All that needs to be done now is find that documentation,etc!! I know I've made it out to sound fairly simple, but my point was, or is, that I would suspect there's information that must, or should have, been documented to it's Design!! Possibly it still exists, maybe it's lost to time!! That's the New Mystery!!
Click to expand...

I absolutely concede that the commonalities established between components of this gun and the specifications and engineering practices of known Smith & Wesson products has made for a greatly increased probability (which is not the same thing as certainty) that it is somehow a part of S&W history. But that role would be at best very ill-defined and speculative at this point, and there are still some nagging discrepancies. This is a process and we will all be well served in realizing that just a few "baby steps" have been taken so far, too few to form a firm foundation upon which any conclusions can be drawn.

Take a deep breath and a step back, compartmentalize your enthusiasm, and, most of all, stay objective.

So, who's volunteering to go to Springfield and begin scouring the company archives?
 
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Dave Nash said:
"Hondo44":

517,152 is a six page patent (for "A Swinging Cylinder and Trigger Lock for Revolvers" ) with two of those pages containing drawings and a front page that specifically states "No model".

It should be noted that a "Trigger Lock" in those days is what we would call the "Lockwork" or the "Action" today and not a "Trigger Lock" used to secure a firearm.

A fast look at 565,245 that you mention (it is for "A Revolver") also reveals the "No model" declaration.

I don't know where 565,385 was referenced but it was filed on January 10th 1896 and granted on August 4th 1896 (those were not only the good old days but the efficient good old days) and it has nothing to do with firearms that I can see in my fast look-see.

Hey, I went back and looked more closely at 565,245 and its front page lists the Serial Number under which it (the application) was filed as 565,385. That is how the application for what became 565,245 was entered into the system and tracked through the patent process before it was granted under Patent Number 565,245. It is not another (here third) patent.
Click to expand...

Doug,
565385 must be a typo in my post carried into your post above, it should read 568385; at least that's the app# referenced in Patent 565245.

To recap key statements from my posts all in one place for the sake of clarity:

1. Patent #565245 Aug 4, 1896 is a patent for "Revolver"; the patent drawing shows clearly a 32 1st model, Model 1896. (I have this one in hard copy form).
2. Patent application (typo in post #171) #568385 is listed in the heading of #1 above as filed Nov. 9, 1895 and states: "No model".
3. Patent #517152 granted to Daniel B. Wesson March 27 1894 is a previous patent referenced in #1 above, in essence described thusly and I quote in part:

"...in which the cylinder is held to be rotated, supported on a yoke swinging on the lower part of frame laterally out of and into said [frame] opening..."

Thanks Masterpiece, I edited the dates in post #171, but geeze...I was only off 100 years...and only twice...(roll eyes).

Hope that helps,
 
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Whatever it is, I'd love to shoot it.
This is probably a stupid question, but it will help to quell my ignorance.
Without serial numbers or model stampings is it possible to get this gun a factory letter?
 
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Varangi said:
Our two major questions now are:
When?
Why?
The answer to either may well answer the other.

Any chance of a few more pics-
top of hammer spur and fouling cups in the topstrap??

As to the when and why: The owner has a story-- I told him lets vet the gun then we'll get the story...

As to the pics- attached
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

I think most are on board with, not certainty, but "most probable" authenticity of the gun as an S&W. Now the back story may be timely to help pin down the when and why everyone is clamoring for!
 
VaRecon said:
Whatever it is, I'd love to shoot it.
This is probably a stupid question, but it will help to quell my ignorance.
Without serial numbers or model stampings is it possible to get this gun a factory letter?
Click to expand...

VaRecon,
Good question? But I believe IIRC after reading a description of the project at their link in this forum, that data can be searched for by other search criteria. It may be as easy as using "protoypes", "patent models" or the like.
I sure hope so!
 
For what it's worth, I did visit the Rock Island Arsenal Museum today. I did not find anything relevant to this discussion in their display of military revolvers.
The closest in outward appearance was the Colt U.S. Army model 1903 DA. And of course their are significant differences with that one.
 
Varangi said:
As to the when and why: The owner has a story-- I told him lets vet the gun then we'll get the story...
Click to expand...

It's probably at the point that we should hear the "story" the current owner has to tell. As to this gun's connection with S&W, the lack of certainty arises from alternate plausible explanations that may account for its existence.

For example, in the 1950's and 1960's, there were highly skilled machinists and smiths who altered and fabricated firearms to suit their own or any paying customer's tastes. Their work could be first-rate. Some might even have been retired S&W employees (or Colt, Remington, et cetera). Call these "fantasy" guns if you will. This wasn't necessarily done with intent to defraud, but later such pieces (particularly in the field of war souvenirs, but also often with frontier era pieces) confounded and fooled many experts, especially if they utilized factory components. This could be one of those, for which a half century later, the creator no longer is alive to step forward and say, "Oh, that thing? I made that up out in my shop." Likewise, the original owner's not around anymore to say, "Oh, I had so and so make that up for me."

Up to now, we've very probably eliminated that the gun was produced by a foreign maker. That's all, and that doesn't automatically sweep away every other possibility.

Just keep an open mind, folks. But that "story" might well put us on the track of supporting documentation that right now is so sorely lacking.
 
Hondo44 said:
Hi Mike,

I think most are on board with, not certainty, but "most probable" authenticity of the gun as an S&W. Now the back story may be timely to help pin down the when and why everyone is clamoring for!
Click to expand...

incoming---give me a couple of days-

The short version is the present owner got it from his mother-in-law who got it from her grandmother who's husband was an employee of Rock Island Arsenal from 1890-1920. I understand that there is an obituary somewhere that shows the employment status of the earliest known owner. The current owner and his family hail from the Illinois area. I will interview the owner at greater length asap.

Mike
 
handejector said:
(might want to edit your dates above)

I keep seeing you refer to the "side swing" patent. I have no clue what that pat covers, but it can't be for the side swing cyl!
Click to expand...

Lee,
Thanks on the dates. Had another problem in there as well; too late at nite/early in the morning.

Side swing patent was stated in my post #105. (I guess the source is clear now, detailed again above for clarity and context.)
 
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Gentlemen, I am too ignorant to offer anything else to this discussion, but if I can get them into a format I can post I will Provide copies of the drawings and description for 517,152 that I obtained from the patent office site. The cylinder release is a lever on the top strap. The cylinder pictured is 7-shot.
 
Varangi said:
The short version is the present owner got it from his mother-in-law who got it from her grandmother who's husband was an employee of Rock Island Arsenal from 1890-1920.
Click to expand...

Someone who worked at the Rock Island Arsenal conceivably could have been just the sort of person skilled enough to build this revolver per the scenario I laid out in post #193, albeit in an earlier time frame. Such a person might have worked at Smith & Wesson in the course of his career, too (remember, the government appropriated S&W during WWI). Or, he might have been a janitor and the information is irrelevant. Still a lot of ways this could turn out in play, I'd say.
 
Eddy's Shooting Sports said:
http://photobucket.com/mysterysw

Mike will follow up with measurements and observations.

A quicker teaser though. The sideplate screws are .120 44 pitch.....
Click to expand...


What a pleasure to see these additional images!


Looks like "S & W" all through to me.


Also, at-a-glance, the Cylinder probably has enough room or 'meat' for .44 Russian, even if being Chambered for .41 SW C'tg.
 
Patent # 517,152

As promised.

Page 1

00517152-002.jpg


Page 2

00517152-001.jpg


Page 3

00517152-003.jpg


Page 4

00517152-004.jpg


Page 5

00517152-005.jpg


Page 6

00517152-006.jpg
 
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