Mystery Gun- What is it?

[cgt4570]

Regarding the previous discussions about single actions falling out of fashion with major military forces at that time: WRONG. The Russians and the Italians of the era, just to name a couple, insisted on issueing single actions to their NCOs and enlisted's that carried sidearms. The DA's were only issued to officers. They thought the enlisted's would just waste ammo with a double action (plus I suspect that given the political issues of the time and forced conscription, they wanted to ensure the officers always had a slight advantage over their own men in the field).

 

[Hondo44]

Regarding the previous discussions about single actions falling out of fashion with major military forces at that time: WRONG. The Russians and the Italians of the era, just to name a couple, insisted on issueing single actions to their NCOs and enlisted's that carried sidearms. The DA's were only issued to officers. They thought the enlisted's would just waste ammo with a double action (plus I suspect that given the political issues of the time and forced conscription, they wanted to ensure the officers always had a slight advantage over their own men in the field).

Chris,
That's an astute observation.
It also leads to a possible answer to the question: why would an apparent prototype be completely finished and blued? It could have been a salseman's sample to show Russia, Japan, etc., previous customers of large orders in the past. A new solid frame design to entice them into a new contract for a new improved model revolver to update their arsenal inventories. Those large military orders were very lucrative for S&W.

 

[cgt4570]

Yep. This was the same time that Russia was looking at and soon adopted the Belgian designed 1895 Nagant revolver. While not seen often today on the surplus market, many of them were single action only.

 

[Oyeboteb]

A DA Revolver who's Lockwork can be modified by removal or drop-in of approprite part(s) to only function in SA, would have made more sense...far as a new design which would satisfy SA interests, while also readily allowing DA and SA both, or DA only, if or when wanted, in the same Revolver.

Hard to imagine this would have been lost on the S & W Design people of the late 1880s or into the 1890s ( but, who knows? )

 

[Hondo44]

Oyeboteb,
More good logic that probably points the MG to earlier rather than later in the timeline IMO. Like before the HE lockwork that we know is convertible and maybe even before the DA topbreak lockwork that I'm not sure about the convertibility.

 

[Sebago Son]

So where is the supporting documentation from S&W?

If this is a genuine S&W product of such import and significance then certainly there would be drawings from Engineering, contracts from Sales, records & time sheets from Production.

 

[Hondo44]

So where is the supporting documentation from S&W?

If this is a genuine S&W product of such import and significance then certainly there would be drawings from Engineering, contracts from Sales, records & time sheets from Production.

One would think so. Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation?

Goony has asked Roy again on the SWCA forum; "Questions for Roy".

 

[Goony]

I've corresponded with the Rock Island Arsenal regarding our mystery gun. The reply I received is reproduced below:

"I do have information on Russell West. According to his obituary, he had a
very interesting federal career in addition to being responsible for the
museum near the end of his career.

"The only early documentation of the contents of the museum was a catalog that
was published in 1909, "Catalogue of the Ordnance Museum, Rock Island Arsenal,
Rock Island, Ill." It can be found online:

Descriptive Catalogue of the Ordnance Museum, Rock Island Arsenal

"I suggest that you look through this catalog to see if the weapon appears in
the catalog.

"The Rock Island Arsenal was the repository for all types of military
equipment, including small arms, in its early history. Unfortunately, we
don't have any documents concerning what was stored here. Many items that
were stored here were sold at auction, and Bannerman's was fairly consistent
customer. Bannerman's, as you probably know, had a military resale shop in
New York City and sold obsolete military equipment through published catalogs.

"If you would like copies of what information I have on Russell West. Please
let me know."

Kris Gayman Leinicke
Museum Director
Rock Island Arsenal Museum


I have not yet gone through the referenced catalog, so anyone here can feel free to beat me to it and report back. My thinking was that Russell West may have come into personal possession of the gun as a result of the reorginization of the collection he oversaw in 1918-19. If so, it could be listed in that 1909 catalog.

 

[CBA44]

Revolvers--- page 54---- nope.

 

[VaRecon]

This is getting more and more interesting.
I'm not a knowledgeable commentator but having read this whole forum the most convincing point is the possibility of this being a Spanish infringement revolver captured or recovered during the war and preserved as a curiosity.
Like I said, this is just my speculation as I am by no means an expert.
I'll enjoy watching how this discussion plays out.

 

[VaRecon]

After reading Goony's post dealing with Rock Island's archives I made an attempt to find the firearm in question.
Under Section II- Muskets and Trophies of U.S.
Described on page 42 are "TWO 6-INCH BARREL, CAL, 42., REVOLVERS MADE BY ORBEA HERMANOS, EIBAR, ESPANA"
Is it possible, this is one of these guns?

 

[A10]

I did a very quick review of the catalog and it looks like it will take some time. The classifications are a little odd, as the Phillipine section had many revolvers (not well described) that were not included in the revolvers and pistols section. Also, on page 54, there were listings for "Revolver, Colt Automatic, .38 caliber" and "Revolver, Luger Automatic, .30 caliber", so the listings may get confusing. It doesn't look to me as if the catalog will be a simple search.

 

[baldeagle8888]

Up to this point, I've just been reading, but decided to finally spout off and make a few comments.
I do want to say up front, I have no idea if the revolver is a S&W or a copy, nor do I have any expertise that would allow me to do anything more then evalulate what the photo's show and provided by the OP.
I would think that to find the truth, an open mind must be taken and let the evidence be the guide to a position.
In post # 251 by varecon, I found the same data and it does raise a ? mark, but only that since I couldn't find any additional data or descriptions mentioned.
My thoughts, and I say this based upon some Frame machining work that I currently have going on. Based upon Photo's, this would appear to have been done by a full design and NOT some run of the mill and one of a kind take off. I believe that the Caliber, .41?? being of a critical issue as to lead me to think this selection would be very unlikely, unless you consider a pre production model. With the gun in hand, this should/could be verified as to the exact caliber. Another very important detail in my mind, is the screw size/threads. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
baldeagle8888

 

[VaRecon]

It seemed to me the Orbea brother's copy was not necessarily a smoking gun, but along with some information and speculation by other members a page or so back it was just too close to ignore. As far as my knowledge goes, I'm surpassed at this point as to any other options as to what it could be but I am certainly not as versed in these matters as some other members. I am just speculating at this point, but with the LeMat revolver using .42 caliber ammunition, and the low number of these produced, in Spain, it seems reasoning this could be the actual caliber of the gun with a .41 Colt still fitting in the chamber due to the very close proportion. Just my best guess. Could be miles off for all I know.

 

[Hondo44]

After reading Goony's post dealing with Rock Island's archives I made an attempt to find the firearm in question.
Under Section II- Muskets and Trophies of U.S.
Described on page 42 are "TWO 6-INCH BARREL, CAL, 42., REVOLVERS MADE BY ORBEA HERMANOS, EIBAR, ESPANA"
Is it possible, this is one of these guns?

Those two are listed as "REVOLVERS MADE BY ORBEA HERMANOS, EIBAR, ESPANA" because that's what they are marked. Our mystery gun is marked S&W. Therefore it wouldn't be listed that way, it would be listed as an "S&W MARKED gun made by or copied by ORBEA HERMANOS, EIBAR, ESPANA".

Plus ORBEA HERMANOS was only quilty of copying known Smith models, not inventing unique new Smith models. And it has already been determined that the MG is not infringement.

I studied the entire inventory list and found nothing even remotely described like the MG.

 

[PALADIN85020]

It strikes me that the description "MADE BY ORBEA HERMANOS, EIBAR, ESPANA" reflects only a probable marking on those guns, and no additional mention was made of any S&W markings. If it were a pure description rather than a recitation of markings, it would probably read something like "two revolvers made by Orbea Hermanos in Eibar, Spain." The fact that "Espana" was used rather than "Spain" leads me to believe someone simply copied the Spanish markings on these guns - and that would preclude them having any relation to the mystery gun.

Note: I was writing this at the same time as Jim; I agree with his observations completely - quite logical.

John

 

[VaRecon]

Okay, Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Sebago Son]

John, respectfully, that's a long way around the barn. It's just as likely that the archiever KNEW where the guns came from, or was reading from a tag or catalog page as supplied by someone whe knew where they came from. The fact that the inventory specifies the .42 caliber is very telling to me.... Drew

 

[Hondo44]

With the gun in hand, this should/could be verified as to the exact caliber. Another very important detail in my mind, is the screw size/threads. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
baldeagle8888

Caliber verification is in post #157. Thread size also verified above as S&W without doubt.

 

[Arisin Wind]

I looked through the posts again but maybe I missed it. Has it been established the gun was at or is from Rock Island? I know one of the first owners worked there but do we know if the gun was there and is from there?