N. J. Rabensburg's Apprenticeship was in La Grange and not Austin

[arabensburg]

N. J. Rabensburg began his leather making career as a young apprentice in La Grange, Texas working at La Grange Saddlery located during the summer of 1909 on the southwest side of the town square. His commencement year would be 1906 or perhaps earlier, say 1904, as a part time worker. The location, however, for La Grange Saddlery had been in previous years at or near 108 W. Colorado Street. The building, however, was replaced with a newer structure, and no record photos of the earlier building presently exist.

Rabensburg never lived in Austin as a young man or was associated with Charles W. Kluge and the Kluge Brothers Company as an employee/apprentice or for that matter any other like company within the Austin community.

However, Rabensburg was associated with a well-known saddlery family, which had ties to both La Grange and Austin. This same saddlery family could have made the introductions and arrangements for Rabensburg to meet in 1906 with Captain John R. Hughes of the Texas Rangers either in La Grange or Austin concerning the “Sunday” holster. Also, one member of this same saddlery family happened to work at La Grange Saddlery between 1904 and 1906 when Rabensburg would have been working on a part time basis while in high school and then later during the summer of 1906 as a full time employee on an apprenticeship status.

August W. Brill is also tied in with this scenario. N. J. Rabensburg has, thus, ties not only with this well-known saddlery family both in La Grange and Austin but mostly likely with the Brill family as well. The association with the Brill family can now be pushed back to 1906 with this introduction of the first “Sunday” holster.

Rabensburg left La Grange for Dallas, Texas on Sunday evening, November 28, 1909 at the age of twenty (20) years. Years later as a mature, forty-three (43) year old adult, he moved to Austin for the first (1st) time on August 31, 1932.

Rabensburg probably attended high school in La Grange along with one or more of his contemporaries; therefore, his association with La Grange Saddlery may have actually started earlier on weekends and after school. This means that the leather making career for Rabensburg may have had its beginnings in La Grange a year or two prior to 1906.

Rabensburg would have lived in La Grange with one of his two Ehlinger uncles, who were the older brothers to his mother, Wilhelmina Rabensburg-Girndt nee Ehlinger. The uncles would have provided a proper home and supervision for their nephew. This would, of course, have satisfied his mother, who would have never allowed her son to leave home at a young age without proper guidance from a respected family member. No such relatives of N. J. Rabensburg were living in Austin at this time.

Gayle Herring, who lives in Austin and is a granddaughter of N. J. Rabensburg, gave this recent reply to the question concerning N.J. Rabensburg living in Austin as a young man:

"I never heard any such discussion to that effect by any other family member. You would think something would've been said over the course of many years.

What I do recall is our grandfather growing up in Fayette County, working in La Grange and Llano, Texas before the final move to Austin. I have learned from you that our grandparents lived in Llano longer than I previously thought. I would think our grandfather would have been older since he was married with family when he moved to Austin for the first time.

Gayle Herring"

By Neale Rabensburg

 

[dobegrant]

Are you putting together a book about your grandfather? If not maybe you show

 

[arabensburg]

Was James T. Wroe the mentor to N. J. Rabensburg?

Are you putting together a book about your grandfather? If not maybe you show

James P. Wroe of Fayette County owned a saddlery in La Grange in 1881 in the same location or next door to the location for La Grange Saddlery in 1909. J. P. Wroe was well known for his saddles and holsters. This man would be a generation removed from N. J. Rabensburg.

J. P. Wroe also worked later at La Grange Saddlery when N. J. Rabensburg was there also as a part timer and as a young apprentice. Wroe was located in La Grange in 1908 according to a patent pending on a saddle.

A recent sale of a vintage shoulder holster by J. P. Wroe provided the following history and the attached photo:

"This is a great shoulder holster from a Texas maker that is listed in the Texas Gazetteer in La Grange in 1882/1883. He is then listed in Burnett in 1884 through 1885. This may have been a second shop. He is listed in the Gazetteer as J. P. Wroe & Co. in La Grange. He was in La Grange in August 1908, where he filed a patent for a saddle tree bar and steel fork. The shoulder holster will fit the Colt Single Action 5 1/2” and has the bump outs to prove it. The makers mark is in the front center and reads “J. P. WROE MAKER” in an oval. The makers mark is a little light in places. One of the photos is the same mark from a different holster and shows what the makers mark originally looked like. The holster has a great basket weave design. The back of the holster is lined."

Was James P. Wroe the mentor to N. J. Rabensburg? Is Wroe related to the Wroe family of Austin? It appears Wroe's home base is Winchester, which is about 8 miles to the northwest of La Grange.

By Neale Rabensburg

 

[rednichols]

Get thee to an Austin library, Neale, for a city directory in the area. These directories are not limited to the capitol cities.

Hughes is reputed to have started the ball rolling, from Nelson's article. We have clear evidence that Hughes arrived in Austin in 1905 (newspaper article attached). But I have only the 1906-1907 Austin city directory, and we have clear evidence that Hughes left Austin 1907 (reference book).

Agreed that all the parties -- Hughes, White, Kluge, Brill, even Ranger McNelly's widow who married Brill shortly after -- are in the 1906-07 directory (I have the full PDF, cover image attached) except N.J. Rabensburg. Although we must keep in mind that the evidence points to, but does not prove, that Hughes had the holster developed immediately because his men had been dismounted and needed to conceal their pistols. Which then went on the new trousers belts on trousers with loops that were new in that very year (1904 the evidence says). It would make sense that N.J. would not have still been there for 1907.

I recommend you find a government document that shows N.J.'s residence in 1905. He would be 15 or 16 y/o which is the age of apprenticeships in those days; after that he should be finished and have become a journeyman; and after that a master at which point the guild allowed him to open his own shop; and doubtless this latter is what took him out of Texas only to return to marry in LaGrange.

States had state censuses that were taken outside of the Federal census that was only every ten years; and so 1900 and 1910 in N.J.'s case. The chap who founded Shelton-Payne Arms in El Paso appears in them during the late 19th century.

You also have contacts within the museum fraternity. I reckon you'll feel best when you have documentary evidence of where N.J. was when the Sunday scabbard was created.

Until then we only have the (I understood 'close' from your emails) connection he had with the Kluge family that you told me about. That and Charles Kluge taking credit for the scabbard suggests what Nelson wrote out is an egg that can't be unscrambled. Best of luck, honestly, and keep us posted

 

[SG-688]

I long ago lost hope of keeping the players and their roles in that "scrambled egg" straight -- but I retain my admiration for all of them.

In a similar vein, we had a ball of spaghetti in the Chic Gaylord / Seventrees story - and that with events and records a mere 50 years old rather than 100. The accidental discovery of the Bob Angell strand helped make sense of it, but not completely.

 

[arabensburg]

Rabensburg lived in Fayette County until age 20 years

Get thee to an Austin library, Neale, for a city directory in the area. These directories are not limited to the capitol cities.

Hughes is reputed to have started the ball rolling, from Nelson's article. We have clear evidence that Hughes arrived in Austin in 1905 (newspaper article attached). But I have only the 1906-1907 Austin city directory, and we have clear evidence that Hughes left Austin 1907 (reference book).

Agreed that all the parties -- Hughes, White, Kluge, Brill, even Ranger McNelly's widow who married Brill shortly after -- are in the 1906-07 directory (I have the full PDF, cover image attached) except N.J. Rabensburg. Although we must keep in mind that the evidence points to, but does not prove, that Hughes had the holster developed immediately because his men had been dismounted and needed to conceal their pistols. Which then went on the new trousers belts on trousers with loops that were new in that very year (1904 the evidence says). It would make sense that N.J. would not have still been there for 1907.

I recommend you find a government document that shows N.J.'s residence in 1905. He would be 15 or 16 y/o which is the age of apprenticeships in those days; after that he should be finished and have become a journeyman; and after that a master at which point the guild allowed him to open his own shop; and doubtless this latter is what took him out of Texas only to return to marry in LaGrange.

States had state censuses that were taken outside of the Federal census that was only every ten years; and so 1900 and 1910 in N.J.'s case. The chap who founded Shelton-Payne Arms in El Paso appears in them during the late 19th century.

You also have contacts within the museum fraternity. I reckon you'll feel best when you have documentary evidence of where N.J. was when the Sunday scabbard was created.

Until then we only have the (I understood 'close' from your emails) connection he had with the Kluge family that you told me about. That and Charles Kluge taking credit for the scabbard suggests what Nelson wrote out is an egg that can't be unscrambled. Best of luck, honestly, and keep us posted

Rabensburg lived in Fayette County until he was 20 years old and then it was off to Dallas and beyond. Austin, Texas, the A. W. Brill Company and Charles W. Kluge would have to wait many years before there was actual working contact.

Also, please remember, I knew the man. I was there and watched him make those belts and A. W. Brill marked holsters. I was almost 15 years old when he died and attuned to my surroundings.

My sister was there as well and is 3 years older. She has memories, which add to the picture. We both spent time in that workshop. I was there a lot.

The years for us started during the late 1940s and ended with his death in May 1961. However, I continued the conversation with my grandmother Lillian until her death in 1969. I was in Austin at the University of Texas from 1964 until 1971 and visited with her often.

My sister, Gayle Herring of Austin and I, Neale Rabensburg, are probably the only people left alive on planet Earth, who actually knew a "Brill" holster maker. Not only did we know a "Brill" holster maker, we actually watched that holster maker make the holster itself.

From my standpoint, N. J. Rabensburg is the creator of the "Brill", the Sunday holster of 1906 and the A. W. Brill holster from 1932 forward.

James P. Wroe is a new addition to the story. I knew of his existence in Fayette County several years ago but placed him aside. Now, I want to bring him to the forefront.

James P. Wroe is known for his saddles, but also his holsters as well. He is there in La Grange during the early 1880s, has his own saddle shop, works later for the La Grange Saddlery between 1904 to 1906/1908, when N. J. Rabensburg is in high school and working for La Grange Saddlery as a young apprentice.

Wroe made shoulder holsters and his holsters carried a lining/liner as did those made by Rabensburg. One might think that Wroe could have very well been Rabensburg's mentor and the force, which pushed him to the Texas Rangers and Captain John R. Hughes with his "Sunday" holster design.

Remember, N. J. Rabensburg was born in August 1889, and it is now April 2023, but we, my sister and I, knew and watched the man. We are indeed a part of the equation and our recall is very important.

Nothing in the Rabensburg family was ever mentioned or discussed by my grandparents or by my Dad or uncles of N. J. Rabensburg ever spending his youth in Austin. The Kluge name was never discussed. This is official from the Rabensburg family.

I do reject any attempts to rewrite certain aspects of my own family history and offer the following:

1. According to the La Grange Journal newspaper dated December 2, 1909, Rabensburg worked at La Grange Saddlery for several years and noted the following:

“Newton Rabensburg, for the past several years in the employ of the LaGrange Saddlery Company, left Sunday night for Dallas to enter the employ of a wholesale saddlery house. May good luck be yours, young man.”

Since “several” according to Merriam and Webster means “more than two but fewer than many”, then Rabensburg started his apprenticeship at the age of sixteen (16) years in the summer of 1906 following his high school graduation.

2. It has recently been determined that N. J. Rabensburg received his high school education in La Grange as well; therefore, his association with La Grange Saddlery may have actually started prior to 1906 as a “part-timer”.

3. My sister has already reported in a statement that she does not recall her grandfather living outside Fayette County during his youth.

4. The La Grange Journal newspaper also establishes N. J. Rabensburg at age nineteen (19) years as living in La Grange during the year 1909 and employed by La Grange Saddlery. The issue was dated August 5, 1909. The clipping notes the following:

“Newton Rabensburg, who is in the employ of the LaGrange Saddlery Company, received the sad message Monday that the young wife of Arthur Steves had died that day. Arthur, who is well known here, was but recently married—about six weeks ago—and the sad death of his beloved wife leaves a wound in his heart that time alone may heal. Newton left for Ellinger the same day to inform the relatives.”

5. The LaGrange Journal newspaper also notes in its issue dated Thursday, August 8, 1907 the following:

“N. J. Rabensburg (age 17 years) of La Grange visited home (Ellinger) folks Sunday.”

6. The von Rosenberg Family Record, Book II, which was a hardback published in January 1, 1974 notes that Newton Joseph Rabensburg started his apprenticeship in La Grange in 1908. I disagree with the date but agree with the location. I am not sure who wrote this account because both of my grandparents had died years earlier.

In summary, N. J. Rabensburg worked for La Grange Saddlery for several years according to the La Grange Journal newspaper dated December 2, 1909. Several means more than two, therefore, 1906 is a reasonable start date for his apprenticeship. Also, according to the same newspaper, Rabensburg was living in La Grange in August 1907 at the age of 17 years.

I do frequent libraries and do function as a librarian myself for the Round Top Area Historical Society. I am also on the Board of the Fayette Public Library and Heritage Museum and Archives and do consult regularly with the Portal to Texas History offered online by the University of North Texas.

 

[rednichols]

(altered from my original post)
Now we're getting down to brass tacks. I hold those articles of yours in my Chronology this way, with exact dates, cut and paste from Excel:

1909 7 15 "Newton Rabensburg, who is in the employ of the LaGrange Saddlery Co". LaGrange Journal, 15 Aug 1909. Earliest mention of N.J. at this saddlery

1909 12 2 "Newton Rabensburg, for the past several years in the employ of LaGrange Saddlery, left Sunday night for Dallas". The LaGrange Journal, 02 Dec 1909 (age 20)("Several' is 'more than two but not many")

1910 4 "N.J. Rabensburg", U.S. Census 1910 Apr. Dallas TX, boarder, leatherworker/saddles (future in-law Louis Walter is in LaGrange as 'saddler/own shop')

1911 12 Rabensburg shifts to Silver City NM during the period between leaving Dallas TX and arriving Price UT. See Old Craft, date calc.

1912 9 5 N.J. Rabensburg Has Come to Price (UT)", The News-Advocate, 05 Sep 1912. Rabensburg arrives Utah (until Mar 1915)

Notice that your 'past several years' quotation if from the very end of 1909; all of 1907/1908/1909 certainly qualify as three or 'several' years. LaGrange saddlery was founded 1904. N.J., by age 20, would most certainly have been at least a journeyman and on his way to being a master, leading to his shifts to other states.

James Wroe's relationship with W.T. Wroe, who employed A.W. Brill as an office manager, is unclear; I've researched this in the past. Beyond that the Wroes are a distraction from the Sunday scabbard's origin, relevant only to Brill himself and the Texas Rangers because his new wife was the widow of famed Ranger McNelly.

 

[arabensburg]

It is 1906, and James P. Wroe looks promising.

Thanks, Neale, your dates are all post 1905 though. I have them in my chronology, too, you and I have exchanged this info in the past. What neither of us has, is a document showing where N.J. was in 1905; what he did later only shows us he was a restless man out to make his fortune.

James Wroe's relationship with W.T. Wroe who employed A.W. Brill as an office manager is unclear; I've researches this in the past. Beyond that the Wroes are a distraction from the Sunday scabbard's origin.

1905? The subject year is 1906. Rabensburg is clearly living in La Grange as a youth and working for La Grange Saddlery. That is in print.

W. T. Wroe of Austin has been discussed in years past, but that was switched not by me but by you to the Kluge Brothers. W. T. Wroe may be a distraction to some, but James P. Wroe of Fayette County looks promising.

If W. T. Wroe is a relative of James P. Wroe, then the actual meeting between Captain John R. Hughes of the Texas Rangers and N. J. Rabensburg could have been arranged in Austin at the W. T. Wroe Company with August W. Brill as manager present.

With the actual meeting in Austin rather than La Grange, then W. T. Wroe is not a distraction but rather the center of attention for the introduction of the "Sunday" holster to Hughes.

I have no communication concerning James P. Wroe of Fayette County from you to me. However, there was some from Fayette Heritage Museum and Archives of La Grange. Unfortunately, I chose to ignore it back then but not now.

By Neale Rabensburg

 

[rednichols]

Stalemate then. I'm convinced that we don't know where N.J. was in when Hughes commissioned the Sunday scabbard in 1905 when he arrived Austin or 1906 while his Company was there until he left early 1907.

 

[arabensburg]

What is the stalemate and why?

Stalemate then. I'm convinced that we don't know where N.J. was in when Hughes commissioned the Sunday scabbard in 1905 when he arrived Austin or 1906 while his Company was there until he left early 1907.

What is the stalemate and why? There has been so much discussion back and forth about N. J. Rabensburg's apprenticeship and location. I think my position has been made clear in this thread.

You have a better source on Captain John R. Hughes concerning his tenure in Austin. You say he is there from 1905 to 1907. Okay, that works for me. My reference material dances around Austin and gives no dates or much information at all about Austin.

Where are you now with N. J. Rabensburg and the Sunday holster? You and I used to be on the same page.

Why is N. J. Rabensburg's apprenticeship location important and with whom?

By Neale Rabensburg

 

[boykinlp]

Where are you now with N. J. Rabensburg and the Sunday holster? You and I used to be on the same page.

By Neale Rabensburg

Neale, you know where he is now, it was stated in his latest book. At one time you both used to be on the same page. Then after more EXTENSIVE research Red changed to a different page. At one time everybody thought the world was flat, then after more extensive research, they changed their minds (except for Kyrie Irving, apparently). You spent a considerable time contributing to the forum, then you started rehashing the same conjectures over and over again, molding them to what you wanted to be true.

After that dead horse was beaten to a pulp, everyone agreed to stop. While there are tons of interesting things on this forum, and we continued to post, you decided not to contribute on other things. You disappeared you many months. Now you are back rehashing what you posted before. I understand you want everyone to believe as you do, but unfortunately, that isn’t likely.

If there are folks that missed that LONG thread, here is a link so you can read how all this developed and see the information when originally posted:

A little Texas historical story - A. W. Brill Holsters

I know I was one of the frequent posters in that thread, and agreed to let it go. I am not trying to be belligerent, in fact I stayed out of all of your “new” posts until now. I just don’t want it to get into urinating contest, like before, by rehashing information in the closed post.
Sincerely,
Larry

 

[arabensburg]

Neale, you know where he is now, it was stated in his latest book. At one time you both used to be on the same page. Then after more EXTENSIVE research Red changed to a different page. At one time everybody thought the world was flat, then after more extensive research, they changed their minds (except for Kyrie Irving, apparently). You spent a considerable time contributing to the forum, then you started rehashing the same conjectures over and over again, molding them to what you wanted to be true.

After that dead horse was beaten to a pulp, everyone agreed to stop. While there are tons of interesting things on this forum, and we continued to post, you decided not to contribute on other things. You disappeared you many months. Now you are back rehashing what you posted before. I understand you want everyone to believe as you do, but unfortunately, that isn’t likely.

If there are folks that missed that LONG thread, here is a link so you can read how all this developed and see the information when originally posted:

A little Texas historical story - A. W. Brill Holsters

I know I was one of the frequent posters in that thread, and agreed to let it go. I am not trying to be belligerent, in fact I stayed out of all of your “new” posts until now. I just don’t want it to get into urinating contest, like before, by rehashing information in the closed post.
Sincerely,
Larry

Do not listen to my story, others will.

By Neale Rabensburg

 

[turnerriver]

It’s supposed to be about Gun leather and carry gear.
Closed.