n2 new model ?

[BMur]

Evidence of period alteration!

Ok now if we look closely at the rear of the altered barrel photo you can actually see the matching assembly number 65 both on the frame and on the back of the altered barrel partially concealed by the machining( left side near forcing cone? However! There is now an additional assembly letter and number located below it! Why? Why two sets of numbers? In my newly found opinion this additional set of assembly numbers is in lieu of the alteration and follows a pattern of production often used by manufacturing and shop milling of that era where they actually took the time to apply these numbers to altered and/ or refinished parts. The die stamps are also using Antique style numbers! So, " Shut my mouth"!

So with this information I would find the other two that you mentioned and see if they have the same assembly number on the barrel? Perhaps Z1 and Z2? That would also prove the same shop made them and if they are higher numbers like Z76 then maybe they made a lot more than just a few!

 

[bibain]

Hello
The study of assembly numbers is, in our case, very interesting

I do not know if at S & W, the affixing of assembly numbers respects a certain standard or if it is done at random with only obligation to be the same on the three main parts.

Out of curiosity, I checked the assembly numbers of all my tip up: all are a combination of number and letter, except my n2 : numbers 23 and my n1 1 issue : numbers 4)) .

In the case of my copy (76009)
it is interesting to note that in two places (frame and barrel) the numbers have been partially erased by the modification.
for the barrel , may be that the person responsible for putting them incorrectly estimated the location?

The original assembly numbers have no logic (Z3 , 066 (990) & o cut) We can think of a reassembly from different parts.

The second assembly number is 85 which can be found in several places
(for me the 85 is the second number, that of the modification, because it is affixed to places where s & w does not put them: at the top of the frame, the access hatch, the grips )

The case of my friend's copy (65941) makes more sense, only two sets of numbers, the original assembly numbers 52 and the modification number 63.
I hope I can send you specific photos of these numbers

In either case, the new set of numbers is always put in the same place.

These are all these details, as well as the perfect copy of the two copies, which make me think of a work in a workshop (even small) very professional and very structured.

Unfortunately, the archives concerning this work will be very difficult to find.

 

[bibain]

Here are the pictures of the numbers I forgot to show you
(sn 76009)

 

[BMur]

BIBAIN,
Yeah those numbers are something you need to always provide for evaluation of your example. They represent a very distinct "pattern of production" whether it be factory, Major Distributor or small machine shop of that era? " They all attended the same school"! That's why I was skeptical at first about the time frame of the alteration. I think that you are well aware from your presentation that a later alteration represents very little historical interest from collectors but a period alteration ( especially if a significant run was manufactured) is most definitely " Historically Significant " and translates to a heightened interest which is clearly seen by the number of hits on this thread. Also increased value.
In order to visualize the dynamic of production during that time you must study "Patterns of Production" from All manufacturers of that era including Major Distributors and small shops.
What we now " Must See" is a pattern with the other two known examples. Even if the additional assembly numbers are not the same? There should be a very distinct pattern to prove that they are done at the same shop. Please attempt to acquire numbers seen on the other examples for further evaluation and photos if possible.
The number 63 you mention on your friends example may be the pattern that we are looking for since yours has 65 on the frame? We need a photo " Close up" of the die stamps to compare the numbers. The 6 should be identical!
As far as records?
It's very important to closely photo assembly numbers found on examples having dealers marking on barrels. Die stamps are very often very unique and actually made by machinists at the shops. They can represent " A Signature of that Shop". So we often waste time searching for documents that no longer exist but the physical evidence is right in front of us!

 

[bibain]

here are the pictures of my friend's S & W 65941 numbers
there is no common figure between my assembly number 85 and that of my friend 63, but in view of the rarity of this modification, we may consider that they come from the same workshop.
If I understand your reasoning, we have 4 digits; 8, 5, 6, 3 to serve as a comparison, among them, two have an atypical shape: the 3 whose top is flattened and not bulging and the 5 or it seems to miss the top bar.
It is true that in the absence of archives and other copies to study, this analysis of assembly numbers will be one more element for our research.

Thank you for the time you have given to study my post

 

[bibain]

a montage showing the most readable assembly numbers

 

[BMur]

Dies matching

Bibain,
Could you look at your unaltered No. 2 on the frame under the grips? Where is the number and what is it?
The only possible connection between the two is the location and sequence of the numbers 65 and 63 on the frame under the grips but this might be a factory assembly number.
To be honest I was hoping there was a suffix Z on the back of your friends barrel followed by a number. That would be significant.
Could you also have your friend look closely on the barrel for a Z suffix followed by a number? It could be in a different location like underneath on the flat next to the latch?

 

[BMur]

Shops " Re- finish, machine work numbers"

Bibain,
I just checked out a couple friends unaltered No. 2 Army's and they have the assembly number on the right side lower grip frame. I also zoomed in on yours and can't see a number on the left side grip frame so I'm assuming that Smith & Wesson typically stamped them on the "Right side" grip frame with the matching assembly number.

So I think the 63 and 65 numbers found in the exact same place on the "Upper left grip frame" and having the same size die for each are actually the numbers that you're looking for. I strongly suspect that the shop that made these modified No. 2's stamped those numbers there. This would be their Signature Work! A procedure that they would have followed on all the guns that they actually "machined & refinished".

Now Using those numbers as a guide you now need to search for any and all guns in the No. 1 1/2, No.2, even Mongrels in the 1 1/2 etc that are clearly marked by a distributor in France usually on the barrel top. Ask the owner to please take off the left grip and see if there is a refinish & machined shop stamped number ( These are Not actually assembly numbers) in the exact same place with the exact same die font size and you have yourself solid ground to stand on. You know where to go from there. Find every example you can from that shop and look for those numbers and document each.

 

[bibain]

Hello
I inspected my two n2

The number 65954: w3 at the bottom, right side of the frame, w3 front side of the cylinder, 33 7 (can be exchanged ? )
The number 75803: 23 at the bottom, left side of the frame, 23 front side of the cylinder, 23 barrel
The size of all these marks is 0.06 inch, except the barrel of 65954 (33 7) which is 0.08 inch

Concerning the modified n2 of my friend (65941), there is no Z on the barrel and no marking on the right side of the frame.


I think so :
The numbers posed by S & W would therefore be
-at the bottom, left or right side of the frame
-front side of the cylinder
-barrel
the numbers posed for the transformation would therefore be
-at the top, left side of the frame,
- rear of the cylinder,
- barrel

my work will begin with the census of gunsmiths of the 1870s and study their work. They were numerous at that time.
Thank you