NATO ammo varying specs?

[Nevada Ed]

I can get 1250fps with a 124gr Gold Dot out of my 5" but...............

only with one powder, a full load of Blue Dot and the group was
nothing to brag about.
Sorry, I don't have any of the "newer" 2000 type slow powders to test.

 

[Darkenfast]

We've seen a lot of these threads and questions over the years. I would say (and this is just my own estimate), that Winchester NATO 124 grain ammunition will get somewhere between 1140-1180 in service length handguns. In spite of the warnings on the box, I believe that this load's pressure is only mildly +P by U.S. standards and probably average by western European standards. Note that pressure and velocity don't always correlate due to various factors such as burn rate, etc. Some NATO countries use 115 grain bullets, which appeared fairly early in the 9mm Parabellum's life.

 

[stansdds]

We've seen a lot of these threads and questions over the years. I would say (and this is just my own estimate), that Winchester NATO 124 grain ammunition will get somewhere between 1140-1180 in service length handguns. In spite of the warnings on the box, I believe that this load's pressure is only mildly +P by U.S. standards and probably average by western European standards. Note that pressure and velocity don't always correlate due to various factors such as burn rate, etc. Some NATO countries use 115 grain bullets, which appeared fairly early in the 9mm Parabellum's life.

NATO ammo pressure almost perfectly splits the difference between SAAMI standard pressure and +P pressure specifications. It's not as hot as many believe. Except for that NATO ammo made by Hirtenberger that was specifically for submachine guns. Don't know how much of that stuff is still out there as it was produced only in 1991, 92, and 93, but it is reported to be really hot ammo. FYI, that ammo is marked HP-91,92, or 93- L7A1 - and the NATO acceptance stamp.

 

[typetwelve]

NATO ammo pressure almost perfectly splits the difference between SAAMI standard pressure and +P pressure specifications. It's not as hot as many believe. Except for that NATO ammo made by Hirtenberger that was specifically for submachine guns. Don't know how much of that stuff is still out there as it was produced only in 1991, 92, and 93, but it is reported to be really hot ammo. FYI, that ammo is marked HP-91,92, or 93- L7A1 - and the NATO acceptance stamp.

This is what I always understood. I do not own a chrono, but I do have a good hand-dyno with 30 years of shooting exp.

I've ran some stout 9mm rounds, mostly +P and +P+ offerings from Winchester in their Ranger line (as well as +P+ 9mm 9BPLE from Federal). Those 9BPLE rounds are down right hot, the recoil from them is notable compared to STD.

The difference from STD to +P, to +P+ is definitely notable. I have quite a bit of Winchester 9mm NATO and I'll say that it seems just slightly hotter than STD pressure rounds. I even ran a staggered magazine to see if I could tell the difference, it wasn't big.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Hirtenberger ammo was made for the MG and is a full +P+ ammo.
I found one testing on the net and they shot just two rounds out
of their weapons, to get a fps reading on May 2016.

The round is at a OAL of 1.16" with a metallic 123gr bare base bullet
that has a .354" dia. with bullet and primer being sealed.
The NATO ball type bullet is pushed with 7.0 grs of powder.

A CZ PO9 4.53" had a two shot average of 1343fps.

A CZ E-VO 7.72" had a two shot average of 1413fps.

A 4" Desert Eagle with ZOI NATO 124 ammo did ...... 1187fps.
A 4" M&P with Winchester 124 NATO 94368 did ........ 1207fps.

As you can see, a 124gr bullet reaching 1300fps is a +P+ possibility
that brings high pressures to the table.
Take care

 

[rwsmith]

It seems that the main points.....

http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/STANAG4090-cartridge_9x19.pdf

This is a pdf of the Standardization Agreement for Small Arms Ammunition (9 mm Parabellum) from 15 April 1982.

They do not define what a "standard proof barrel" is so we can only guess. Maybe someone else can find that standard.

Compatibility is probably the biggest issue. Next being lethal and accurate to shoot 3" groups at 50 yards.

Well, whaddya know? That's more accurate that I'll ever be!

 

[Kurusu]

NATO ammo pressure almost perfectly splits the difference between SAAMI standard pressure and +P pressure specifications. It's not as hot as many believe. Except for that NATO ammo made by Hirtenberger that was specifically for submachine guns. Don't know how much of that stuff is still out there as it was produced only in 1991, 92, and 93, but it is reported to be really hot ammo. FYI, that ammo is marked HP-91,92, or 93- L7A1 - and the NATO acceptance stamp.

We also had a load specific for submachine guns. They had 124 gr bullets, don't know what velocities they achieved, but I know that using them in our service P.38s was a sure way to end up cracking the locking block on them.

And the Beretta 92 is a P.38 in disguise.

 

[rockquarry]

I wouldn't put too much thinking into this. I guess this stuff would be considered bulk ammo and FMJ bulk ammo for handgun or rifle doesn't shoot all that well anyway from an accuracy perspective. It's reliable and always fires, but I wouldn't expect more than that.

 

[old tanker]

Stamping NATO on the box does not make it so. There is commercial ammo sold as NATO spec for types of ammo that NATO never even adopted.

 

[Kurusu]

I wouldn't put too much thinking into this. I guess this stuff would be considered bulk ammo and FMJ bulk ammo for handgun or rifle doesn't shoot all that well anyway from an accuracy perspective. It's reliable and always fires, but I wouldn't expect more than that.

Ours wasn't half bad.

25 meters one handed from a fixed sight 4 inch barrel.

 

[Rock185]

Racer X, were the velocities mentioned advertised, or did you chronograph the ammo? Within my humble experience, chronographed velocities are often different than advertised velocities. I've seen the Winchester 9MM 124 NATO most commonly advertised as 1185 FPS, but also 1140 and 1200 FPS.

FWIW, over about the last 20 years or so, I've used thousands of rounds of the Winchester Q4318 124 NATO in a variety of pistols, carbines and revolvers. More recently I've also used and chronographed IMI 124 NATO ammo. Both bear the NATO cross in circle headstamp, with year of manufacture,etc. I don't have a 7.85" test barrel, but have tested some NATO ammo in the closest I have, a Hi Power GP with 5.9" barrel. The Winchester averaged 1244 FPS and the IMI 1286 FPS. In a 16" carbine, the Winchester was 1296 FPS, the IMI NATO 1344 FPS. I too have read other's results in chronographing various manufactuer's "NATO" ammo. If not marked with the NATO cross in circle, I wonder if it is just their regular commercial ball ammo marketed as "NATO" for a hoped for marketing advantage?

I can't speak for some of the other manufactuer's ammo marketed as "NATO", but did check into the Winchester NATO. I contacted a Winchester LE Rep. He indicated the Winchester 9MM NATO ammo is NATO spec ammo, whether sold in the white Q4318 boxes, or in the tan Ranger RA9124N boxes. Based on chronograph results, sealed case mouth,sealed and crimped primers, I believe the information he gave me is correct.

 

[Racer X]

Those numbers were pulled from advertisements or grabbed from the manufacturers website.

BUT, part of this threads purpose was to find out what the barrel SHOULD be that was used in their testing. Knowing now that the NATO spec includes a nearly 8" barrel, those advertised numbers are higher than what we would get in a 4"-5" service pistol. I can see a nearly 8" subgun getting those numbers.

 

[Nevada Ed]

After reading the above spec data on the 9mm NATO round
with the minimum energy of 400 ft/lbs. a 124gr bullet needs 1205fps.
I think the 600 ME maximum of 600 ft/lbs is an error and should read 500 ft/lbs....
A 124gr bullet doing 1350fps would produce 500 ft/lbs of ME.

I don't think there is a 9mm weapon made today that can fire a
magazine of ammo that gets 600 ft/lbs ME and survive that FPS/pressure.
I also don't think some "NATO" ammo gets a minimum 400 ft./lbs. or is waterproof?

Somewhere I remember reading that a PF of 160-161 (?) should
be the maximum load for a 9mm pistol. At 1350fps the power factor is 167.

My 5" is happy with a 124 plated at 1200fps for a NATO round that hits at POA.
It has a nice PF148 that is easy on the weapon.

edit c/o124 fps/pf .....not 115 data.

 

[typetwelve]

Racer X, were the velocities mentioned advertised, or did you chronograph the ammo? Within my humble experience, chronographed velocities are often different than advertised velocities. I've seen the Winchester 9MM 124 NATO most commonly advertised as 1185 FPS, but also 1140 and 1200 FPS.

FWIW, over about the last 20 years or so, I've used thousands of rounds of the Winchester Q4318 124 NATO in a variety of pistols, carbines and revolvers. More recently I've also used and chronographed IMI 124 NATO ammo. Both bear the NATO cross in circle headstamp, with year of manufacture,etc. I don't have a 7.85" test barrel, but have tested some NATO ammo in the closest I have, a Hi Power GP with 5.9" barrel. The Winchester averaged 1244 FPS and the IMI 1286 FPS. In a 16" carbine, the Winchester was 1296 FPS, the IMI NATO 1344 FPS. I too have read other's results in chronographing various manufactuer's "NATO" ammo. If not marked with the NATO cross in circle, I wonder if it is just their regular commercial ball ammo marketed as "NATO" for a hoped for marketing advantage?

I can't speak for some of the other manufactuer's ammo marketed as "NATO", but did check into the Winchester NATO. I contacted a Winchester LE Rep. He indicated the Winchester 9MM NATO ammo is NATO spec ammo, whether sold in the white Q4318 boxes, or in the tan Ranger RA9124N boxes. Based on chronograph results, sealed case mouth,sealed and crimped primers, I believe the information he gave me is correct.

I was going to say, the only 9mm NATO I've ever ran has been the Winchester white box offering. All of their stuff has the NATO cross on the casing. One weird thing of note, some of it has sealed primers, some does not.

 

[MichiganScott]

I was going to say, the only 9mm NATO I've ever ran has been the Winchester white box offering. All of their stuff has the NATO cross on the casing. One weird thing of note, some of it has sealed primers, some does not.

I've got a couple of cases of WWWB 115 grain that do not have the NATO box and a couple of loose boxes that do. I suspect WW will load it with brass surplus to other needs, but usually they load it with cases made specifically for that line.