Navy Red Letter thoughts

[mdmorrissey]

Hello all. So I have the opportunity to purchase this Red Letter Navy S&W Victory and wanted to get input on how it looks and whether it might be legitimate, or just another fake. The seller told me that this came out of an old collection that was accumulated 40 or 50 years ago, and he felt that the gun has the look/feel of something that hasn't been messed with. He did provide an inspection period and if it looks like this is a forgery, it would take it back (always a good sign regarding the honesty of the seller).

We have an all matching (butt, cylinder and right grip panel) Victory (ser #V98349) with the "Navy" roll stamp on the top frame strap. To my untrained eye, that piece of the puzzle looks good-to-go and I don't have issues with that. What obviously caught my eye is the "Red Letter" markings on the left side of the frame, and that is what I have a question on. Does this look legit or would anyone have concerns about it?

From my research, I believe it would be correct for a Victory model in this serial range with a Navy roll mark to fit into the "Red Letter" category.

The pictures that I have don't provide enough detail of the lettering to make a complete determination, but the seller told me that they don't have a "dot-matrix" appearance, which would indicate a more recent forgery.

The loss of the red paint in the letters actually makes me feel a little better because that matches the overall "used" finish of the rest of the gun (some of the few examples that I have seen on the internet have a thick/deep red paint, which would make me think that they might have been "refreshed" at some point?).

Anyway, any input that the pros can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[mdmorrissey]

Some more pix

 

[murphydog]

It fits into the early pre-war to wartime 1905/Victory Model era, and I agree the stamping looks original. The tricky part is these were applied after shipment by the military, so a letter of authenticity will not be able to verify them.

 

[DWalt]

There has always been some mystery about where, why, and by whom the marking was applied. It is clearly engraved, and it wouldn't be difficult for someone with access to an engraving machine to exactly duplicate it. There have also been some indications of engravings filled with white paint, but I have seen none of those. I can conclude only that there isn't a reliable method to confirm or refute originality. For that reason, I would not go overboard in paying much of a premium for a Navy-engraved revolver.

You may wish to read this, which may or may not be helpful: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ictory-auction.html?highlight=Red+letter+navy

 

[bruce5781]

I don't have any input, other than it is refreshing to see someone ask questions before they buy.

Regards,
Bruce

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

 

[ordnanceguy]

mdmorrissey:

Both the top strap roll-marked U.S. NAVY and the engraved left frame PROPERTY OF U.S. NAVY markings appear authentic to me. The Victory Model Database shows similarly marked examples in the same serial range.

I have compared the engraved NAVY marking you posted to photos in my reference materials of others that are believed to be genuine. They appear to be identical. The Red NAVY marking here is dissimilar to a couple of examples that I consider to be suspicious. Thus, my opinion is that the markings you ask about are authentic.

If you purchase this revolver I recommend that you obtain a S&WHF letter to document its shipment to the Navy. Since the Red NAVY marking was applied post-factory the letter cannot authenticate that feature but you can assure yourself (and any future buyer) of it being a genuine Navy shipped Victory with the letter. If you obtain such a letter I hope that you will post back here with the details.

I hope that helps you. Good luck.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[DWalt]

Keep in mind that if you do purchase it, you may have difficulty in selling it as an original when the time comes, as you will have no reliable formal provenance. Just something to consider before you part with your $$. While I agree that it does look like the real McCoy, and I have no doubt that it started life as a Navy shipment, opinions and stories do not constitute evidence.

 

[AJ]

What is the asking price?

 

[mdmorrissey]

mdmorrissey:


.... I recommend that you obtain a S&WHF letter to document its shipment to the Navy. Since the Red NAVY marking was applied post-factory the letter cannot authenticate that feature but you can assure yourself (and any future buyer) of it being a genuine Navy shipped Victory with the letter. If you obtain such a letter I hope that you will post back here with the details.

I hope that helps you. Good luck.

Regards,
Charlie

Thank you Charlie. I really appreciate the analysis and input.

But wouldn't the Navy roll marking pretty much indicate that it was a Navy shipment gun, or were some of those marked "Navy" sidetracked to other destinations?

 

[DWalt]

It was originally a Navy revolver. Just where it went later can never be known. It even could have served in the Army or Air Force during Vietnam. Many did.

 

[ordnanceguy]

.... wanted to get input on how it looks and whether it might be legitimate, or just another fake.

mdmorrisey:

I understood your question to be whether the gun and the markings are legit. Navy top strap markings have been faked before. Nonetheless, as I said above I have no doubt that it is a genuine Navy-shipped Victory. A SWHF letter will establish that to a certainty and will allay any concern as to whether it is legit "or just another fake". You won't have to rely on my opinion or those of others. The letter won't help you on the Red NAVY marking but will show it to be a genuine Navy shipped Victory and will give you the ship date and shipping destination, all valuable data to have.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[mdmorrissey]

mdmorrisey:

I understood your question to be whether the gun and the markings are legit. Navy top strap markings have been faked before. Nonetheless, as I said above I have no doubt that it is a genuine Navy-shipped Victory. A SWHF letter will establish that to a certainty and will allay any concern as to whether it is legit "or just another fake". You won't have to rely on my opinion or those of others. The letter won't help you on the Red NAVY marking but will show it to be a genuine Navy shipped Victory and will give you the ship date and shipping destination, all valuable data to have.

Regards,
Charlie

Ok. Got it. I didn't realize the Navy roll marks had been faked too. Thanks again for all your help! Really appreciated!!

 

[mdmorrissey]

I got the revolver in hand today and took some shots at various angles of the "Property of US Navy" markings in hopes of getting feedback. I am certainly no expert on these, but nothing jumps out at me that looks odd. I actually like the 'weak' amount of red paint in the lettering compared to some examples that I saw on the internet of thick/full paint. I would guess that there would be a higher probability that a faker would add more paint just to emphasize the lettering? At a minimum, I would think that the paint on this example stands a better chance of being original, rather than having been refreshed. I realize that there will be no way of completely knowing, but any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[kwill1911]

FWIW, I've owned three such Victory Models and your markings are consistent with the ones I've owned. If Charlie says it looks right there is a high probability it is right. I believe (as do others) that these were marked at Mare Island. Earlier guns shipped there are marked "N.Y.M.I" with a number which stands for Navy Yard Mare Island.

 

[blockislander]

It looks good to me too. I have had a couple. They looked exactly like this one. I got this one from Karl Karash, well known collector.

 

[mdmorrissey]

Thanks for the input! Here are a couple shots of the right grip panel. The fit is super tight and I don't doubt it matches, but just wanted to confirm the numbers were good. I actually had to 'soften' the details in photo shop to help get the outlines of the numbers more pronounced. I can see enough now to believe that it is a match.

 

[tenntex32]

A good giveaway before checking to see if the stocks are matching s/n wise is proper fit. Flush along the frame with no proudness, smallness, or gaps. Of course all bets are off if the original stocks have been sanded/reworked or if they have been correctly fit when replaced.

Here is my addition to the conversation. I didn't give a premium for it but I sure wanted it as soon as I found it.

It is pre-Victory s/n with no U.S. Navy topstrap marking and has matching stocks.