Need 38 S&W load data for black powder substitutes

[Pantera Mike]

All,

Having spent several hours digesting everything I can find on this forum as well as others, I’m left more confused than ever.

I’ve been reloading for 40 years for 20th century guns, but yesterday got a 1889 S&W Safety Hammerless in 38 S&W. I’ve ordered new Starline brass and 146gr bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. I’ve got dies (38 Super sizer, and either 380 ACP, 38 Super or 9mm seat/crimper), and primers galore.

What I don’t have is a good feel for the type of powder I should use. Most smokeless data specifies it’s not suitable for 19th century iron-framed top-break revolvers. That then suggests black powder should be used.

I’ve never used black powder and am not thrilled about the prospect. The notion of using a substitute like Pyrodex P or Triple Seven sounds much more appealing. Ideally I would be using my Dillon press since my single-stage press is buried in the back of my storage unit.

So please edjumacate me on the processes and procedures as well as specific load data recommendations using black powder substitutes?

Thanks

 

[DWalt]

Start with about 2 - 2.5 grains of a fast powder, like Bullseye or others in its class. That would be a very light load, Safe for old top breaks. The .38 S&W can be loaded much more heavily for use in more modern solid frame revolvers. Unless it is stated otherwise, propellant load data found in reloading handbooks for the .38 S&W is actually safe to use in top breaks.

I have used a .38 Super sizing die and 9mm mouth expanding and seating dies for a great many years. Regular .38 Special lead bullets (0.358") can be used very satisfactorily. There is so little difference in bullet diameter it means nothing - only about 0.003". Actually, even 9mm lead bullets are OK. The SAAMI minimum diameter bullet given for the .38 S&W is 0.355". I have used them also.

 

[venomballistics]

I'm not sure that's something you want to do on a progressive press. Powder measures differ a bit, and i hear tell the stuff can make a mess of things. It'd be worth the trouble to unearth the single stage.

Loading black, or black subs is a little different from smokeless.
it's a "don't fear the reaper" affair where you charge with a volume of powder that will entirely fill the space between the bottom of the case and the base of the bullet, with a tickle and a half extra for a slightly compressed load.

 

[DWalt]

Nothing wrong with making up BP loads if you have BP (or Pyrodex), but they are awfully dirty and messy. No real problem in using smokeless powder in conservative loadings.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm wondering.....

This isn't my field, but would reduced loads of Trail Boss be acceptable in an old black powder firearm?

 

[raljr1]

Honestly, wouldn't modern factory ammo be ok in these? For as often as you are going to shoot this old gun, why not just do that?

 

[scooter123]

Guys the difference between Steel and Iron is significant. Iron has a much lower Yield Point and tends to Yield by fracturing instead of stretching. If you want a modern example just look to what happens when you don't use anti freeze in an Iron engine block and it freezes solid. They don't bulge they crack.

There are two significant differences between Black and Smokeless powders. One is that while they are slower burning in open air Smokeless powders have a more rapid rate of pressure increase than Black Powder. The other difference is that with smokeless powders you can have an air gap between the powder and bullet. With black powder the initial burn rate for black powders is limited by compressing the powder, so having an air gap between powder and bullet WILL result in a blown up gun. Note the reason for this is twofold, one is the high burn rate of un-restrained black powder and the other is that the pressure/temperature curve for black powder can cross over to Detonation at a much lower combined value than for Smokeless powder.

So you should NOT use Smokeless Powder in an iron frame gun unless you are curious to see how it feels when a gun blows up in your hand.

Note, technically Pyrodex is a Smokeless powder that gets an exception for this rule because it is designed to produce a pressure curve similar to Black Powder. However in order to use it properly you must load it using the recommended weight of the charge and the instructions on how to assemble the cartridge properly. Never having used Pyrodex I have no idea if it requires compression but if it does that means that you must adhere to that detail.

I'll also note that the Folks I know own black powder firearms greatly prefer using true black powder because it's the real thing. One friend on my Skeet Squad loaded up a full box of Black powder shells and used it to shoot a Parker shotgun dating back to the late 1880's for a round of Skeet. Fortunately there was a light wind on that day so he was able to see well enough to see the second target on a true pair. What was a real hoot and probably why so many shoot the real thing is the muzzle report. Instead of the crack you get with Smokeless powder what you get is much longer muzzle report that can be best described as BaHooom. It's so distinctive that everyone shooting in adjacent fields all came to watch the Smoke Show.

 

[2152hq]

You load BP substitutes the same way you load Black Powder.

Don't be concerned with weighing the charge...

The powder charge with either (real BP, or one of the BP subs) must fill the case to the base of the bullet when the bullet it seat and crimped.
NO air space must exist inside the case.

The powder(s) should be lightly compressed as the bullet is seated adn crimped.
Don't over do this, but again do not leave any air space/unfilled space inside the case when using these powders.

Loading cartridges with BP or a Sub-BP is easy to do.
If using a regular press, I would use a single stage BUT I would not and don't in my own loading use the Powder Drop.
I use a simple scoop measure and manualy fill the case after the priming stage with the powder. Then back to using the press for seating and crimping.

A scoop of proper volume can be made from an empty cartridge case. Doesn't have to be the cal you are using, just as long as it scoops and measures the correct volume of powder.
File the mouth of the case down till it carrys the amt you want for your brass.
A small simple wire handle soldered or twisted around the case and amply super glued into place to the case makes the scoop easy to use.

There are quite a few BP subs.
Pydodex gets a lot of bad reviews from the MuzzleLoading crowd that use the traditional long guns.
It ignites perfectly fine with cartridge primers.

Corrosive?, ,,yes if you don't clean the gun. so is BP.
They attract water/moisture from the air and rust metal.
So clean the gun.
CArtridge guns are a bit more tedious to clean well than MLdrs. But that's part of the 'charm' as they say!

I used 'Clean Shot' BP sub for many yrs in cart and MLdr.
I like it and still have quite a bit of it. Very clean shooting, very little fouling. Still needs to be cleaned though!.
I don't know if they even make the stuff anymore.
It may be sold as American Pioneer powder now,,or maybe it was the other way around!

 

[tom2]

Seems that you have no worries about overloading the black powder pistol cartridges with black powder, unless it is too much to seat the bullet. I think of course the bullets should be lead which seems obvious. Probably softer is better in this case. And realize that modern brass will not hold as much powder as antique balloon head cases anyway. Like with muzzle loading revolvers. As long as you can get the bullet flush into the chamber, the BP load will be OK although some bigger bores will still be thunderous and recoil alot maybe. Alot of those guys use much less than maximum loads but it is not for fear, but using less powder to just punch paper and more pleasant to shoot and maybe improved accuracy compared to max smoke. But you still do not want any air gap between the projectile and the powder, seat tight.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The hydro absorbing properties of all Black Powder and most subs is that you will need to disassemble your powder measurer and clean it or the moisture corrodes the softer metal parts. I ruined to different styles of powder measurers.

The only corrosion resistant powder measure I've found is the Lyman 55 Black Powder version. Before being discontinued it was only $10 above reg Lyman 55 price.

I would go with the Lee scoops for the relatively few you will load. OR if you like to tinker: Make your own scoop from a cartridge case. Use a fired 38 S&W case with the old primer in it. Twist a wire handle on it. Drip candle wax in until the volume is reduced to the point you want. (This was common in non commercial loading kits clear into the 1970's)

Ivan

 

[glowe]

First false premise is that 38 DA revolvers were made of iron. Absolutely untrue. All models of 38 DAs were steel. Likely 40 ksi steel more than capable of handling 38 S&W pressures which were designed to generate only 13 ksi. Any theory that steel loses strength over time is also a witches tale. Abuse and corrosion can, however, reduce strength so condition of the revolver is important.

Now on to the false premise that smokeless powder has a different pressure curve than BP. Absolutely disproved many times over, even in the early days of smokeless, it was known that one could load smokeless powder to match the characteristics and pressures of BP. How else could early smokeless ammunition manufacturers offer this load for over 130 years without published failures or issues with its use?

One thing to remember is that old wives tales have some basis in its long misguided promulgation of false claims. The origins of such claims almost certainly date back to the very early years of smokeless powders. Early on, bulk smokeless powders were manufactured to replace, by volume, BP. Nitrocellulose powders, on the other hand, required only a fraction of the volume of BP. Reloading errors involved loading Nitro powders by the same volume as bulk and BP. Results were catastrophic! At the same time, ammunition factories had no problems with the smokeless powder replacement of BP with loadings that worked perfectly, and still produce those very loadings for 38 S&W. S&W took some time to recognize the benefits of smokeless, but ultimately stated they warranty their firearms to work fine with the new powder in the early 1900s.

Lastly, the pressure curves of smokeless can and do match BP and many times at lower peak pressures. Several loads in various publications are available with pressures lower than standard pressures. Is smokeless powder safe in these guns, absolutely, if one does some research to find matching or lower pressures than 13,000 psi.

 

[Model19man]

38 S&W is a pretty puny round especially the way it is loaded today by commercial manufacturers. Very little velocity and pressure. Probably less of both than anything you could load with black powder or one of the bp subs. I would not be troubled in the least to use commercially loaded 146 grain lead ammunition in one of the old S&W top breaks.

 

[DWalt]

Absolutely. Factory Smokeless powder loads became available in most calibers in the mid-1890s and co-existed with corresponding black powder loads for another 20 or so years before BP cartridges became obsolete. During that period, many cartridge handguns made after the Civil War remained in widespread use, and there was never any concern about them blowing up while firing factory smokeless ammunition. The real hazard was handloaders who tried to use the BP powder charge weights when loading with smokeless powder. Even today, factory smokeless loads in the old cartridges such as the .38 S&W are safe to use in any of the 19th Century revolvers because they are purposely loaded so lightly. One can handload .38 S&W cartridges to much higher performance levels using smokeless powder, but such loads should never be used in any of the old 19th Century revolvers.

Back in the 1970s, I believe, Federal and Charter Arms came up with a rimmed 9mm cartridge for use with a Charter Arms revolver. The problem was that the cartridge had 9mm pressure and performance, but was a dead ringer for a .38 S&W, and in fact fitted into a .38 S&W chamber. A few old .38 S&W revolvers got blown up when some of the new 9mm rimmed cartridges were inadvertently fired in them. In short order Federal and Charter Arms dropped both the cartridge and the revolver from their product lines.