Need education on 9mm bullet weights for short barrels

[joeintexas]

As you probably guessed there are as many different opinions as there are bullet weights and manufacture's. I tend to carry a 40 s&w or a 45 acp but I do own several 9s including a Shield. In it I load 124gr. Federal HST's. I really can't tell much difference in recoil between the 115, 124 or 147, but then after a few rounds of 40s and 45s the 9 seems pretty mild. I don't think for self defense rounds you can go wrong with most any of the main manufacture's, for range ammo most anything will work. Good luck with your search.

 

[URIT]

Recoil management is more about the gun (heavy is good) you are using and the grip you have on it when fired. Too many people are running guns that do not fit their hand properly, fail to lock their wrists or grip the firearm properly, and others shy away from anticipated noise or recoil.

Don't be fooled. The FBI and LE agencies are switching to 9mm because the ammo is cheaper than other calibers - not more effective. The savings can be huge and the politicians in charge of the agency's budget can point to cost savings to get a bonus, promotion, reappointment, or (re)elected.

See Iggy's post for a link to the Luckygunner ballistics tests which were made using short barreled pistols.

 

[blasterp7]

For range use, it doesn't matter. Experiment with different rounds/weights and see what shoots best in your gun.

For self defense, my personal preference is for medium-to-heavy bullet weights for caliber. In 9mm, I would consider that to be in the 124-147gr range. I keep my Beretta 92FS loaded with 147gr HST, as it's established a good track record in actual shootings. I would have no problem carrying it in a compact or subcompact.

I would suggest Googling Dr. Roberts' ammo recommendations. I would be ok with just about anything he recommends, though I do have a preference for HST or Gold Dots.

As far as bullet weights, generally speaking, the heavier JHP will penetrate deeper because the increased mass retains their energy/momentum. Lighter bullets, because of their higher velocity, will usually expand faster and penetrate less. After shot placement, penetration is generally considered the most important part of effectiveness. The good thing about JHP in the medium-to-heavy weight range is that they tend to exhibit a good balance between expansion and adequate penetration.

FYI, there's a guy on YouTube who did some good gel tests of 9mm ammo in subcompacts. I think his channel was called, "ShootingtheBull," or something like that (sorry, it's been a while since I've seen it). While I prefer loads with an established "street record," gel tests can be informative.

These are some very, very good suggestions. I especially recommend researching the information regarding Dr. Roberts. I started law enforcement in 1974 and I was issued the Smith 59. we carried the 9mm exclusively until about 1992 when we switched to the .40 - the Smith 4006.

During the time we carried the 9mm we tinkered with every round known to the world. Hollow points were the only duty round ever carried - regardless of projectile weight. We even carried a super light round - if I recall it was 88 grains and, believe it or not, was made by Smith and Wesson. We had mixed results (mostly disappointing) with all of the rounds we tried. It was not until we switched to the 147 grain that we never had an "unsuccessful" situation again!

 

[Cal44]

I chose 124 gr HST as my primary defense load. And any kind of 124 gr FMJ for cheap practice. I stocked up on 50 round boxes of HST when I had the chance, and as fancy self defense loads go it's not expensive.

I also have a couple boxes of 124 gr Gold Dots but haven't shot any yet.

Not much science behind my choice.

I liked how HSTs worked in the LuckyGunner tests.

 

[rockquarry]

Here's what I would do. Get several different ammos, five or six. Vary the weights and bullet styles. I wouldn't mess with anything +P; it's not necessary.

Since my shooting skills are about average, I would shoot several ten-shot groups at 25 yards offhand, paying attention to cartridge feeding reliability, point of bullet impact vs. point of aim, recoil, and accuracy. When an ammo displays all four factors to my liking, I know what's best for me and my pistol.

Granted, it's more trouble and expense doing things the right way, but it needn't be done but once and there will be no doubt as to choice. An ammo that you can shoot well is of far more worth than jello and water jug penetrations or other "tests" that are great for initiating armchair and keyboard discussions that are all but worthless.

 

[gwpercle]

Yeah , Boss you splitting hairs .
Split the difference and go 124 gr. That was the original bullet weight with a truncated cone nose . During WWI it was deemed too much of a killer and they were forced to drop the weight to 115 gr. and gave it a round nose bullet design...so it wouldn't be as lethal .
The 124 grain truncated cone SP or HP is still a great choice , I like it myself .
Gary

 

[rwsmith]

Tell tale targets are great....

I like big, slow moving jacketed hollow points.
147gr for me.

I'm fixin to tell you about some backyard range testing that is as unscientific as it gets.

Living here in The Texas Hill Country, I have no shortage of limestone rocks. I like to pile them up on a cedar stump and plink at them from 25yrds (or so) away.

A .45 230gr hardball round will disintegrate a limestone rock the size of a softball upon impact. Dropping down to 9mm I find that I can most closely approximate this spectacular show of flying dust and debris with 147gr hollow points.

I don't know how all of this would equate to felt recoil as I'm using a 5" 1911 and a 5" Beretta 92fs. Heavy guns with long barrels.

It's my storybook inspired unscientific belief that heavy bullets have more knock down power.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I have been threatening to mix up some ballistics jell but always end up making Jello Shots in mid-stream.

A target that gives some reaction to a hit can teach you a lot. It's better for me to know what I'm doing AS I'm shooting instead of looking at the target after it's over. And......it's just fun.

 

[Darkenfast]

You actually are in a very good position. The 9mm Parabellum has become the most popular self-defense cartridge for both police and civilian use for some very good reasons. The same reasons, in fact, that once made the .38 Special revolver the overwhelming choice of police and civilians: moderate recoil and moderate cost. The market share means that you can go into any gunshop and find a decent load. It's really not an either/or situation: "This load will always work and this load will never work". Get any major brand 115 or 124 gr hollow point. Shoot a box to make sure it works in your pistol and you're good to go.

 

[Darkenfast]

Yeah , Boss you splitting hairs .
Split the difference and go 124 gr. That was the original bullet weight with a truncated cone nose . During WWI it was deemed too much of a killer and they were forced to drop the weight to 115 gr. and gave it a round nose bullet design...so it wouldn't be as lethal .
The 124 grain truncated cone SP or HP is still a great choice , I like it myself .
Gary

Do you have any kind of source for that? Who forced the Germans to change their loads? It sounds like an internet myth to me.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

I'm a fan of practicing with 124 gr Ball Ammo, like the NATO spec Winchester currently on sale from various sources. For carry I go with the Hornady Critical Defense Lite: https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/9mm-luger-100-gr-ftx-critical-defense-lite#!/
My wife can handle the round and I have a SWaMPy 9c and a Kahr P9094N for carry. She uses the Hornady Light .38 Special in a S&W Model 38 revolver with Laser grips as her primary defense side arm.

Geoff
Who is conservative when it comes to ammo.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Do you have any kind of source for that? Who forced the Germans to change their loads? It sounds like an internet myth to me.

This is a serious myth. The "NATO Standard" has much to do with size, shape and cycling power. Usually this is met with a 124 grain bullet, but I have seen ads for 115 gr that supposedly meets the standard. What NATO wants is a round from any member which will function in the weapons of any member who builds to the Specification.

There is another myth about NATO Submachinegun Ammo, which does not exist. The Swedes and Finns used a 145 gr bullet at high velocity which exceeds NATO standard and I would not fire it in my pistols.

Geoff
Who has been around awhile.

 

[Racer X]

The subgun stuff that I recall was Hirtenberger, and was well beyond +P pressures. Only safe in a very stout machine pistol barrels. I remember it on Gun Broker back in the early-mid 2000s.

 

[Pisgah]

Most of the answers you've gotten are overly technical. Some of them are chock-full of false information. And none of them really answer your question.

The honest answer is -- as long as it is a hollowpoint bullet and it shoots accurately and reliably in your pistol, you're good to go. Any bullet weight from 95 gr. to 147 gr. will work for you. Forget the velocity, and all the claims as to which defensive bullet weight or style bests the other. Reliability, accuracy -- that's all you need.

 

[ShivasIrons]

Whatever you use shoot enough of it to make sure it is reliable in your pistol. A 20rd box or two is not enough.

I use the Remington Green and White box 115gr JHP or Winchester White Box 147gr JHP. I think they will both do the job and I can shoot enough of them to verify that they are reliable in a particular pistol.

 

[S&WOkie]

I use the 124 gr HSTs and know of many others that do as well. It is a trusted choice for self defense.

 

[m41]

I read in one of the gun magazines in the past couple months that someone developed a 9mm round for pistols with barrels less than 4" I have looked back and can't find the article. Someone may remember the article and shed some light on the results

 

[Joe4d]

From wiki...

Its official nomenclature among NATO members is "9 mm NATO".[7] Standard bullet weight is 7.0 grams (108 gr) to 8.3 grams (128 gr)..


It's interesting to ask then, why not 147 gr.?

to much change in point of impact.
Which is part of the NATO standard,, ammo has to all shoot to same point of impact

 

[LoboGunLeather]

In semi-auto pistols the absolute gold standard is ammo that functions 100% of the time. The silver standard is ammo that shoots to point of aim at common handgun range (25 yards +/-). Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Whatever you choose make absolutely sure that it will feed, chamber, fire, extract, and eject every time and with every magazine you will be using. Not everything you try will do this.

Whatever you choose test the accuracy to be sure that it strikes at, or very close to, the point of aim with your pistol. You may be surprised how much difference there is between makers, bullet weights, etc.
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By the way, subsonic ammunition is meaningful only for use in suppressed weapons. It is far easier to suppress the muzzle report of ammunition which does not produce a supersonic blast of gases on discharge, and bullets which are not travelling in excess of the speed of sound do not produce the tell-tale sonic "crack" that tells people they are being shot at.

Original development of the 147-grain bullet in 9mm handgun ammo was done in an effort to provide special operations forces with a suppressed pistol load to be used for killing sentries and guard dogs at very close ranges during the Vietnam War. Later on the use of suppressed 9mm submachineguns became fairly common among special operations forces. The relative merits of penetration and terminal performance were not much of an issue for such uses.