Need Help for Info on M&P Model 1905 Fourth Change

easyrider604

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Gentlemen: I'd appreciate whatever you can tell me about my new acquisition. BTW, I am in BC, Canada

Registration document says it is a "38 Hand Ejector Military and Police Model 1905 Fourth Change" with a 5 inch barrel.

Serial No. is 789XXX

It has "BNP" stamp behind each one of the six cylinder flutes as well as under the frame, in front of the trigger guard. It has been reblued in the past, don't know when, but the rollstamps are still deep and well defined.

The cylinder, ejector star and the grip frame butt are stamped with the serial number.

It still has a tight lock-up, smooth DA trigger, smooth bore with sharp rifling and surprisingly accurate with regular pressure .38 Spl reloads (3.7 grains 700X under 158 grain LSWC).

The spent casings look normal, just like those from my 686 and GP100. They are not bottle-necked as I have read in some threads would happen if .38 Spl is fired from reamed-out .38 S&W chambers.

Bullets are not keyholing but this revolver is not as accurate as my GP100 or 686, although I did not bench it to squeeze the most accuracy out of it.

As well, .356 plated bullets are tight (do not enter) the muzzle or breech. I thought the .38 S&W had a .360 bore.

It came with small, checkered wood grips (no medallion) and the Pachmayrs in the pictures. It doesn't have a lanyard ring although I can see a slight mark in the butt, where a hole could have been.


This is the stamp under the barrel where the extractor rod rests:
Smith10package3.jpg


Right Side View:
100_2114.jpg


Left Side View:
100_2113.jpg


Thank you
 
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Hi Easyrider
I cannot make out what is written on the right side of the barrel, but with this serial number, your .38 HE should have been originally chambered for the .38 Special, so I'm not sure what you are asking about the "reamed out .38 S&W chambers."
4th Change production came to a halt in 1942, when S&W went into full production of military arms. The M&P production was devoted to Victory Models during the war and the serial numbers received a "V" prefix. Some of those were chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge - designated .38/200 - but they were all intended for export to GB. Yours is clearly not one of these.
Too bad about the rebluing and the absence of the original grips, but this is still a nice old 5-screw Hand Ejector.
With a 789,000+ serial number, this gun would have been shipped sometime near the end of the 4th Change run.
Regards,
JP
 
British Service Revolvers began to appear in the high 600,000's.
As you can see, your barrel was originally 38 S&W. HOWEVER, the barrel number appears to have been restamped, so if the barrel is replaced but the cylinder matches the gun, it might have been a 38 Special to begin with. If the cyl was originally 38 S&W, you'll be able to see a very slight step halfway down each chamber, and when you fire some warmer loads, you'll see the bottleneck.

These post war conversions and refurbs are fairly common. Some are simple reblues, some are reamed, and some are a conglomeration of cannibalized parts.

I am unsure what you need to know that you don't already?

1905 - 4th changes run all the way to 1948 and include the later Victory series guns.
 
On the side of the barrel it says "38 S&W CTG." That means the gun originally chambered the .38/200 cartridge that had been the standard .38 round in commonwealth countries for a couple of decades by the time WWII started.

On the underside of the barrel, it says .38 SPECIAL, which means the charge holes were bored out at some point so the gun could accept the longer .38 Special cartridge. Reboring was not consistent in these converted guns. If the original .38/200 holes were a little undersize to begin with, a .38 special boring would not be very noticeable. The opposite case is also true, and there are reports of initial .38 Special chamberings that were loose enough to accommodate .38 S&W cartridges. Some converted victories and pre-victories will let .38 special cases bulge or split; others won't. I have a converted Vic in which .38 special rounds literally rattle. I don't think I will try to fire any in that gun.

A serial number in the 789xxx range would have shipped in the first half of 1941.

That is not a wartime finish, and the gun's frame edges look a little soft to me. I concur that the gun has been given a touch up polish and was then re-blued. The lanyard loop was probably removed and the hole plugged at that time.

BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof, evidence (along with the other stampings) of British testing and review before the gun was certified safe for release to the commercial market.

That would be considered a Pre-Victory -- a wartime contract revolver produced before the true Victory models with a V-prefix to the serial number began production in spring of 1942.

To JP@AK: Welcome to the forum. Serial number ranges and associated chamberings in wartime M&Ps make for a tricky subject. The factory was going back and forth between producing .38 Special revolvers for American use and .38/200 revolvers for England, South Africa, Canada and Australia. I have been surprised before by American chamberings in a run of serial numbers that look like commonwealth production, and vice versa. In Smith & Wessons, one learns to expect the unexpected. :)

EDITED TO ADD: OK, while I was composing my usual overlong response, Lee got in there with a post that says most of what I tried to and raises another possibility as well -- a barrel switch-out. Just check all the places where serial numbers are found to test that one.
 
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To JP@AK: Welcome to the forum. Serial number ranges and associated chamberings in wartime M&Ps make for a tricky subject. The factory was going back and forth between producing .38 Special revolvers for American use and .38/200 revolvers for England, South Africa, Canada and Australia. I have been surprised before by American chamberings in a run of serial numbers that look like commonwealth production, and vice versa. In Smith & Wessons, one learns to expect the unexpected. :)

Thanks, Dave, for the welcome and the lesson. I had forgotten that some export models were produced prior to the addition of the V prefix. As you say, this can be tricky. Glad you're around.
JP
 
Easyrider,

What you appear to have is exactly what you have represented it to be, a 1905 .38 Hand Ejector 4th Change.

In spite of the barrel being marked .38 S&W instead of .38 S&W Special. The serial number on the barrel, 789243, has been hand stamped and is somewhat mis-aligned. The British proof and the "mark" you note on the butt indicate it was probably a Victory model. Is here a "V" either before or after the serial number? The fired cases looking normal, and the cylinder SN matching the frame SN reinforce the supposition it was a .38 Special from the beginning.

The BNP designates Birmingham Nitro Proof. The marking on the barrel flat, .38 Special 1.150, indicate it was a .38 Special revolver when it went through the proof house.

Somewhere in it's life, and before going through the proof house, the original barrel has been replaced with a .38 S&W marked barrel. This is shown by the hand stamped serial number and the hand filed clearance cut for the ejector rod head. It is apparently a post WWII barrel for a straight ejector rod that has been modified to accommodate the roughly 1930 to 1945 style rod head. It must have gone to England sometime after WWII and been proofed.

I have never slugged a solid frame S&W revolver barrel marked for .38 S&W, so I have no basis except logic for the next statement. Even though the nominal bullet diameter for .38 S&W is usually given as .360 I have serious doubt that barrels were cut differently than those for .38 Special. A difference of .002" simply is not sufficient to justify different tooling. .002" is less that the average piece of type paper or a magazine page, not very much. Shooting cast lead bullets in both .38 Special and .357 Magnum it is common practice to size anywhere between .358-.360.

The nominal internal dimensions of a S&W .38 barrel are .350 bore and .357 groove. A .38 Special bullet (commercial) runs .357-.360. This is why your bullet won't go in the muzzle, a .357 bullet will not freely enter a .350 (bore) diameter hole, although it will readily pass down the barrel with something like 15,000 PSI of gas pressure pushing it!
 
..... the hand filed clearance cut for the ejector rod head. It is apparently a post WWII barrel for a straight ejector rod that has been modified to accommodate the roughly 1930 to 1945 style rod head. It must have gone to England sometime after WWII and been proofed.
Huh?
That is a normal cut for a large knob. I see no evidence of hand filing. A post war 38 S&W barrel is not a common item.
 
EDITED TO ADD: OK, while I was composing my usual overlong response, Lee got in there with a post that says most of what I tried to

I noticed you left out D.B's pre-teen years..........
:D
:D
:D
:D
 
Wow! Thank you for the replies. I just got home and will read over all of them and re-post. I love this forum already:-)
 
Huh?
That is a normal cut for a large knob. I see no evidence of hand filing. A post war 38 S&W barrel is not a common item.

Lee,

If you blow it up it distinctly appears to have file marks, as well as the rear left (gun left) corner appears to be cut deeper. The appearance of the British proofs make it apparent it was re-finished after those stampe were applied.

I agree about the .38 S&W barrel, but there are other oddities about the gun, a serial number matched .38 Special cylinder in a gun with a .38 S&W marked barrel. How else do you explain the replacement barrel logically? Not to mention the British proofs on the .38 Special cylinder and .38 S&W barrel together and the hand stamped serial number indicating the barrel has been replaced.

I really don't have a defensible explanation for what appears to be an enigma, and, at this point, I don't think anyone else does either. And, a lot of the speculation is based on easyriders description of the charge holes which we have no way of confirming at this time. Maybe he would be good enough to take a good photo of the interior of the cylinder. This simple thing by itself would show if this truly is an enigma or not.
 
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