Need help understanding stampings .455

[sagela]

My .455 HE 2nd model has the broad arrow and the crossed pennants... I need to understand more about them. My impression was the arrow was British and the pennants were Canadian. Straighten me out, please.
Anybody able to interpret the stampings under the broad arrow? I've never followed this line of S&W interest before and am warming to the subject.

This old piece has a nice, shiny bore, faint traces of bluing in the corners, but only one little area on the barrel of pitting.
By the serial number, I'd guess it was just about the last of the run... 1917? (#72467)
Am I also correct it was probably made a few years before heat treating of cylinders was initiated?

Finally, given its lack of bluing, is it worth keeping it as is? It's entirely original as nearly as I can tell and the sideplate screws sort of indicate it hasn't been opened up much or at all.
Thing is, this would make a great trail companion in .45Colt. It'd be difficult to beat it up any worse. It is timed perfectly and locks up tight.

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

That revolver wouldn't excite many collectors, due to its condition. Still, I probably wouldn't rechamber the cylinder; there aren't that many unconverted .455s around anymore.

If it were mine, I'd install a rechambered (.455 to .45 Colt) cylinder and shoot the heck out of it.

 

[grey2393]

I would keep it as is. Buy some .455 ammo and enjoy it. They are getting hard to find, un-converted.

Grey

 

[beagleye]

Beautiful

I am no expert, but I know a cool gun when I see it. That thing is awesome.

 

[PJGP]

The crossed pennants are the British military proof mark. The Broad Arrow is the (British) War Office property stamp. The Crown over V3 over E is the mark of Enfield (Royal Small Arms Factory) inspector V3. The 11 is "Pistol, Smith & Wesson, .455 inch, with 6 1/2 inch barrel, Mark II (Land)". The Mark I was the triple lock in .455.

Peter

 

[sagela]

I'd install a rechambered (.455 to .45 Colt) cylinder

Heck of an idea, if I can find one. Shoot it, AND keep it original. Thanks

 

[Jack Flash]

The Broad Arrow was placed on a firearm to show it was accepted into (British) government service. The Canadians have a similar acceptance mark, except their broad arrow is contained within a large "C". The crossed pennants are a proof mark.

The "stack" of markings under the Broad Arrow indicate

Crown over V3 - is the 'view' proof mark of the London Proof House (pre-1925). It was the mark applied after the actual firing proof. The view proof was an inspection of the firearm involving both simple visual and some measuring procedures to insure the proof firing did not stress the parts beyond acceptable limits. (I copied this from a post long ago... do not know who to credit for this information.)

E over 11 - is an Enfield Inspector's mark, showing that it was inspected at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock.

I gather that the English inspected firearms A LOT. Yours is lightly marked, compared to many shown on this Forum.

Personally, I would not convert it, but that's your call. As far as heat-treating goes, metallurgy was fairly primative back then, so even if it was heat treated, that's not saying much.

Thanks for posting.

 

[sagela]

PJGP - thanks so much. That's the detail I had hoped for. Now I will look for info on Canadian marks just so I'll recognize them if I see them.
Thanks, again.

Larry

 

[2152hq]

Proof (crossed flags) & Inspector Mark (crown/V3/E) look straight English to me.
Canadian proof would have a 'C' or perhaps 'D/C/P' within the flags IIRC for that era. Along with that, probably a stamped 'C' w/a Broadarrow within it showing Canadian property.

I'd keep it in .455 if it were mine. Few around in original configuration.
It's an easy round to load and LEE makes dies for it that are inexpensive.

 

[sagela]

Jack Flash - thank you, too. Even MORE detail. What a great resource this forum is. I've been reading it for years but shied from the task of taking and posting pictures. I'm coming to speed in that category and gaining from the activity.

thanks again

Larry

 

[PJGP]

(I copied this from a post long ago... do not know who to credit for this information.)

I wouldn't credit it to anyone Jack because it is wrong! A Crown over V was the (commercial) London Proof House view mark from the 1600s to 1955. Their proof mark was a Crown over a fancy looking P.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Mk VII]

It's a military inspection mark. Often it's the only mark these American-purchase revolvers have. There's no evidence of commercial proof marks at all (from what we've seen so far).

 

[Jack Flash]

I wouldn't credit it to anyone Jack because it is wrong! A Crown over V was the (commercial) London Proof House view mark from the 1600s to 1955. Their proof mark was a Crown over a fancy looking P.

Cheers
Peter

I don't understand what you are saying, Peter.

Is your point that the crown over V3 is not a view mark?

By the way, the same unknown/forgotten source had this to say about the London Proof Mark:
"The actual proof firing mark for the London Proof House at that time was a Crown over intertwined GP."

 

[PJGP]

QUOTE Jack Flash said: Is your point that the crown over V3 is not a view mark? UNQUOTE

Yes Jack. The (Commercial) London Proof House proof mark was a Crown over intertwined G and P. After proof firing the firearm was "viewed" and the view mark Crown over V applied. See the photo for London markings .

The marks on the S&W in question are military ones and have nothing in common with commercial marks. See my earlier post regarding the Crown over V3 over E.

Regards
Peter

 

[Hondo44]

Jack and Peter,
Not to confuse or argue the issue, but just discuss further, I appreciate your insight.

In my past research I've found the crossed pennants to be an "acceptance stamp" used by Canada when a firearm comes into their country, not a proof mark. Sometimes it's found with no english proofmarks when the gun comes directly from the USA and sometimes with english proofmarks like the specimen in this post, when it went from the USA to England and then to Canada.

 

[Texas Star]

I think all of the M-1917 .45's were heat-treated, per insistence of the US govt. Otherwise, heat- treating seems to have begun about 1919. I'm almost sure the 1917 data is in S&W, 1857-1945, but haven't time to look it up. I posted about this a few months ago, and looked it up then.

Colt was heat-treating cylinders from early in the 20th Century.

If you keep ammo within normal .455 specs, the cylinder will be amply strong.

 

[Aussie D]

As a reference I would look for publications written by Ian Skennerton. His books will cover all British Commonwealth countries and relevant proof, ownership and inspection marks.

Sorry I cannot offer any more than that.

Cheers,

Aussie D

 

[sagela]

Aussie D, that would be The Hayes Handgun Omnibus?
The S&W collector's book section on .455 HE model of 1905 had only a brief reference to the crossed pennants and broad arrow, suggesting one was British, the other Canadian. That's actually what prompted me to write the OP.
Now I have a better idea of what question I'm asking and that will help refine the research.

Thanks for the input.

Larry

 

[deadin]

I can't speak to the .455 Second Model as I don't currently have one in hand to inspect, but I do have a .455 First Model TL that I know for a fact was never in Canada and it has the crossed pennants on it.
It was my understanding that these were applied by Remington UMC who was the purchasing agency for the Brits during WW1. (When you letter a .455 Mk II, it will show that the gun was shipped to Remington.)

 

[2152hq]

Crown/V3/E is an Enfield(Arsenal) Military inspection mark.
Sometimes the 'E' is found face down and appears as an 'M'. The 'V3' is a # assigned to a specific inspector. Some are known to collectors,researchers, some not.

FWIW, The British Small Arms inspector assigned to Colts during WW1 had an inspectors mark he used while in this country with 'Crown/G2/A'
The 'A' denoting America as the inspection location.
Some of the pistols received an additional inspection at Enfield Lock later on and will carry a mark showing that also.

BroadArrow is the British Armed Forces Property mark.

There should be no British Commercial proofs on the revolver at all unless the gun was sold in commercial British sales either before or after Military use. If after, then it should also most likely carry a 'Sold from Service' mark.

The Crossed Pennants is a British Military proof mark. It's found not only on these contract revolvers but also Colts revolvers and semi autos made for England.
Also commonly found on Brit made No1MkIII rifle bolts and bolt heads as an additional proof mark aside from the bbl proof stamp which shows the RSAF location.
I've had it on earlier Mk1(*) rifles and LongLee rifles parts as well..bolts, bolt heads and cocking pieces in particular.

 

[Hondo44]

sagela,

You must be almost sorry that you asked by now...

 

[sagela]

Au contraire, Hondo! I hope the board reconciles amicably, for sure, but the flow of information is everything I'd hoped for. I've followed a few of the links to a point where I downloaded and saved a pdf file of various OTHER nation's proof markings, too. I have some old military rifles but nothing worth studying to date except one I absolutely STUMBLED on. It's a Model 94 Winchester, one of 1800 purchased by the US Army just prior to WWI for use in the logging camps and lumber mills in Western Washington and Oregon when spruce logs were vital for airplane construction. They're referred to as Spruce Guns and have proof markings "U S" to the left, and the ordnance flaming bomb to the right, of Winchesters own intertwined WP proofmark. The guns were made almost exactly the same time as my .455 HE was. The research has lead me to rediscover "The Everett Massacre," Industrial Workers of the World (Wobblies) and the Legion of Loyal Loggers and Lumbermen union.
It's been a fascinating study and the .455 HE started another.
I have friends in Birmingham who are WWII vets and have written them and provided a link to this discussion.

It's been great, and I thank everyone who has contributed.

Larry (just across the lake from Seattle)

 

[Jack Flash]

Sorry I dropped out of the discussion for a couple of days - had a series of minor calamities - but it looks like things went along just fine without me. (Who knows, maybe it was better without me! )

In the above posts, I noticed several folks agree with the idea that the crossed pennants are a British proof mark. Also, someone mentioned Ian Skennerton. That reminded me of something I posted quite a while ago. Here's an abbridged version:

If you can locate a copy of Ian Skennerton's The British Service LEE, look at page 397, under the heading "Proof Marks". You will see plain crossed pennants, as well as crossed pennants with crowns, royal cyphers, etc. So Skennerton lists crossed pennants as a proof mark and if you look elsewhere in the book, you will see it was commonly applied to WWI British Lee Enfields.

It seems like a logical assumption that if the crossed pennants were used as proof marks on rifles, then they would have the same meaning on handguns, especially if the marking was done at the same facility, at the roughly the same time.

To echo Mr. Hondo44, I do not mean to argue, either. I appreciate the civility of the discussion and the value of each contribution.

 

[sagela]

I'm wavering here, guys. I appreciate having something unique from S&W but I already own a 1950 Target model whose barrel was shortened to
3-5/8" with a black ramp front sight, and which has been refinished very professionally. It is a personal delight to carry and shoot. I have a couple all original 5-screw Smiths but avoid shooting them as they gain in value.
This one is not slated to be very valuable so I lean toward making it FUN.

But I really am enjoying the learning curve this one has launched and thank you all for your contributions.

Larry