Need help with New Model 3 Target .32-44

[rkj1974]

Hello all, this is my first post here. Although I own both a Model 29 and 686 for personal use, this post is about a family heirloom that my father/uncle/brother/sisters wish to shoot.

My father inherited a very old and very excellent New Model 3 Target in .32-44, which I understand is a obscure and obsolete cartridge. So I have two questions:

1)Where can I find a custom loader to make said ammunition(I have emails into a few but any other leads would be helpful as I'm figuring that this will not be an easy task)?

2)What is the approx value? This gun is blued with 80% original bluing. Every single example of these pistols that I have found on the net are high serial numbers and/or nickel. So this one is blued. But what I find more interesting is the serial number(marked all places) of #256. This would be by FAR the lowest that I can find, most examples being in the tens of thousands. So with that information, is this even a gun that my family should try to shoot or is the collector value too high to make this practical?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

 

[rct269]

I can't help with custom loaders---other than to give the dimensions of the cartridge case.

It is possible the most unique aspect of an early gun such as yours will be the rear sight---deemed to be a target sight, but not adjustable for either windage nor elevation. An unknown, but small number were fitted to early guns---many later changed to the adjustable version when they became available. An original latch/rear sight will be numbered to the gun (on the underside).

The serial number range of the NM #3 Target series ranges from 1 to 4333, so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say "tens of thousands" (other than perhaps what I'll call the regular NM #3 series whose serials run into the mid 30000's. And that said, it would be most unusual to find a "regular" NM #3 chambered in 32-44----"most unusual" translates to I've never seen nor heard of one.

As to value, the best I can do without good quality photos or a more detailed description is an educated guess of $3,000+----based upon the description you've given.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rkj1974]

Here are the pictures to help ID:

 

[rct269]

Okay, the rear sight appears to be the later version---which is to say it has a small screw on the underside to adjust elevation, and two small screws on the back side which hold a retaining plate in place------------yes?

My value estimate needs to be altered from $3,000+ to $2,000---on a good day.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rkj1974]

Ok, not so much as to be afraid of shooting, that's fine. But now I just need to find a source for a few rounds....

 

[rkj1974]

Here are pictures of the sight:

 

[rct269]

And you did see the elevation screw hiding in front of the cylinder retaining lug, yes?

The barrel should be numbered---right side rear---visible with the latch up (as you're holding it in one of the pictures). I think I see something like a curvy number might be there, but can't make it out.

RT

 

[glowe]

Welcome. What a great New Model 3 to make for your first thread on the Forum. A couple comments.

I have the dimensions for the 32-44 target cartridge and have attached it below. This is a tough one to find brass close enough to re-form. Nothing out there today seems to be close enough. The bullet is .320" dia and around 83 grains. There was also a Gallery round that was 50 grains.

At the least, you will have to be into reloading to manufacture this round. I have read that 32-20 brass can be re-formed, but since the very bottom of the base cannot be resized with standard die sets, I think the base will remain too large to fit into the chambers?? You would have to buy re-sizing dies as well as reloading dies, which will be hard to find.

If you wanted to shoot the gun without regards to high accuracy, you could shoot 32 Long ammunition,but both the brass and the bullet is too small (.312") to be accurate. I believe you can buy black powder and mild smokeless 32 Long cowboy ammo today. Chances are that you will split the brass cases, which does no damage, but makes reloading the brass impossible.

Good luck.

 

[H Richard]

You might post a Wanted to Buy add in the classifieds, but the ammo is rare enough it is collectable in it's own right. I've been into S&W's for over 30+ years, and I've never seen any.

 

[rkj1974]

And you did see the elevation screw hiding in front of the cylinder retaining lug, yes?

The barrel should be numbered---right side rear---visible with the latch up (as you're holding it in one of the pictures). I think I see something like a curvy number might be there, but can't make it out.

RT

I don't see a elevation screw, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Could you describe the location differently for me and I will check again.

Yes, the barrel and cylinder are both marked with the same #256 as the grip frame. As far as I can tell it's all original and numbers matching.

 

[mxbob]

I have on of these in pretty nice condition. I have managed to pick up a few rounds of ammo over 20 years of gun show looking. The cheeapist was $18 per each. I have complete instructions for making ammo from 32-20. It is complicated and requires things that are expensive so I haven't tried it.
I have fired some 32 longs, it is fun but the accuracy is nothing to brag about. So I will just enjoy mine and shoot it ocasionally.
Bob Ray 1815

 

[rct269]

I don't see a elevation screw, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Could you describe the location differently for me and I will check again.

Yes, the barrel and cylinder are both marked with the same #256 as the grip frame. As far as I can tell it's all original and numbers matching.

Okay---different location description for the elevation adjusting screw: With the gun open, and the latch down (in its closed position), you will see a small lug on the latch which overlaps the rear edge of the cylinder. When you raise the latch (as you would to see the serial number on the barrel), you will see the adjusting screw just ahead of the small lug. I'm sure you will agree it couldn't possibly be in a more inconvenient location----which is likely why they moved it to the back side of the lug in later renditions. It was likely placed in the far forward position so as to facilitate maximum elevation adjustment. Not too long afterwards (after legions of owners complained of the inconvenience----and noted they had rifles for shooting at long distances), they changed it. If nothing else, it makes sense.

"All original and numbers matching": Nope, but not a problem in my opinion. The latch/sight should be numbered (on the bottom). It isn't, but it's not like someone made a target gun from one that wasn't, because ALL NM #3 Targets were, as the name implies-------------Targets. AND---your gun almost certainly left Springfield with the non adjustable "target" sight---which was replaced just as soon as the owner got wind of the availability of the "new and improved" version. If nothing else, it also makes sense.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

POOR SHOPPING

I have on of these in pretty nice condition. I have managed to pick up a few rounds of ammo over 20 years of gun show looking. The cheeapist was $18 per each. I have complete instructions for making ammo from 32-20. It is complicated and requires things that are expensive so I haven't tried it.
I have fired some 32 longs, it is fun but the accuracy is nothing to brag about. So I will just enjoy mine and shoot it ocasionally.
Bob Ray 1815

You clearly were at the wrong shows!! I only paid $15 EACH for my two rounds!! Of course, I may have received a quantity discount---because I also bought two rounds of .38-44 ammo------for $15----EACH!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What a nice heirloom!

Gary, wasn't the .32-44 bullet recessed into the casing like the .38-44? And the casing is longer than .32 Long? Perhaps 7.62 Nagant brass might work. The bullet is recessed in those cartridges. Might still split, though.

 

[rkj1974]

Okay---different location description for the elevation adjusting screw: With the gun open, and the latch down (in its closed position), you will see a small lug on the latch which overlaps the rear edge of the cylinder. When you raise the latch (as you would to see the serial number on the barrel), you will see the adjusting screw just ahead of the small lug. I'm sure you will agree it couldn't possibly be in a more inconvenient location----which is likely why they moved it to the back side of the lug in later renditions. It was likely placed in the far forward position so as to facilitate maximum elevation adjustment. Not too long afterwards (after legions of owners complained of the inconvenience----and noted they had rifles for shooting at long distances), they changed it. If nothing else, it makes sense.

"All original and numbers matching": Nope, but not a problem in my opinion. The latch/sight should be numbered (on the bottom). It isn't, but it's not like someone made a target gun from one that wasn't, because ALL NM #3 Targets were, as the name implies-------------Targets. AND---your gun almost certainly left Springfield with the non adjustable "target" sight---which was replaced just as soon as the owner got wind of the availability of the "new and improved" version. If nothing else, it also makes sense.

Ralph Tremaine

Yes, there is a very small screw under the lug as described. So you are saying then that the sight in not original? Not that it bothers me much but learning the history of a piece is always fun!

 

[glowe]

. . . Gary, wasn't the .32-44 bullet recessed into the casing like the .38-44? And the casing is longer than .32 Long? . . .

The cylinder on the NM3 is at least 1 7/16" long and the cases 32-44 cases were less than 1". The standard 32 Long round is 1 1/4" long, so would chamber. As for the recessed bullet, I ran across some information on 32-44 while trying to research it big brother, the 38-44. The larger round was also used in the NM3. The brass of the 38-44 ran the entire length of the charge holes, so had to have a recessed bullet, while the 32-44 could be loaded with an exposed bullet of recessed, either one would work. The 32-44, however, would not work like the 38-44, since it would have to jump about 1/2" of air space in the chamber before hitting the barrel. My guess is that it would work best with a standard seated bullet that brings it nearer the barrel rifling, but have never seen an original round.

 

[rct269]

"--------------but have never seen an original round." (glowe)

The round nose bullet seats .051" above the case mouth in an original round------and as Gary says, would work just fine seated in a normal fashion. (Technically speaking, seated in the normal fashion would work better just because it's closer to the rifling.) The round ball in the gallery load seats deep within the case. I suspect both are seated as they are because it is deemed appropriate to slightly compress the powder in a black powder load--------------is it not? And that being the case, you could seat it anywhere you like with smokeless-----and with all that meat around the chambers, I suspect they would hold the hottest of the hot rod magnums---but I ain't going to hold onto it when we try that out.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

You are right about the BP Ralph. Leaving air between the powder and the bullet is the definition of a pipe bomb. I have always loaded any BP cartridges where the base of the seated bullet compresses the load about 1/16".

Thanks for the information on the bullet seating in the 32-44. Interesting that the bullet is partially recessed in the case, but again, probably because it was also a BP round and that was where the powder level is - at the base of the bullet. With a given amount of powder specified, the factory could have used a filler to allow the bullet to be set higher in the case, but that would have required more time and cost.

 

[rct269]

"---------------the definition of a pipe bomb." (glowe)

The man has a way words, doesn't he?!!

RT