Need info on a .32-20 Spanish S&W clone

kstaines

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2025
Messages
9
Reaction score
16
Location
Tennessee
I am an author and historian doing research on a book that I am writing about a double murder that occurred in my home town in Tennessee in 1943. I know this is probably a long shot and I will apologize for the long post in advance, but I'm needing some information and clarification on the murder weapon that was used in this case. It was described in the F.B.I. report as an "inexpensive, blue steel, .32-20 Spanish revolver, Serial #10367. I was told by someone that it could possibly be a post WW1 Eibar S&W clone. But this is just a SWAG based on the available info. Unfortunately I do not have a photograph of it. I sure wish I did! It would make this SO much easier. Any thoughts?

Anyway, for a bit of background, when this weapon was finally turned over to law enforcement, evidence showed that the cylinder was fully loaded with 4 rounds of .32-20 WESTERN which were live rounds, and two empty shell casings of .32 WCF REM-UMC ammunition. This was due to the fact that the weapon had been shot twice at the murder scene, one round to the head for each victim.

To make an already long story a little shorter, the .32-20 belonged to a deputy sheriff of 35 years who claimed that it had been "stolen" from his home about 7 weeks prior to the murders. One of the victims was his wife's 21 year old niece and the other was the niece's 27 year old husband (who the deputy, by the way, hated). A handwritten statement about the murders, from an unsigned source was recently found tucked away in box in the attic of what was then the district attorney general's office and who was also the prosecutor of this case. Comparing multiple documents and records, the "Mystery Statement" as I call it, was clearly written by the DA but the subject giving the statement is unknown. The content of it however indicates that the deputy in question had hired the one giving the statement to kill his niece and her husband and had not only given this individual his .32-20 to use but had taken part in the crime itself. Incidentally, this mystery statement (along with some other highly questionable information) never made its way into court.

The victims were at the deputy's home when this happened. The deputy and his wife had gone away for the day and had left the couple there alone. After the murders, the .32-20 was left at the scene, stuck barrel up, between the right arm and body of the deputy's niece. Neighbors found the couple and sent word of what had happened. When the deputy and his wife returned, he immediately walked into his house, into the room where the bodies were, walked directly to the body of his niece and says he immediately recognized (what he could see of) the weapon as the one that was "stolen". He then quickly picked it up, took it outside, unloaded it, reloaded it, took it back into the house, wrapped it up in a rag and stuck it in a dresser drawer. Although there was a witness that testified that he saw the deputy bring the weapon outside and unload it, the deputy stated he did not open the cylinder nor did he unload it but did notice there were two empties in the cylinder. This was no doubt a lie. He did actually admit to doing everything else. His reasoning behind the actions was he "was bothered" and "didn't know what he was doing". Several really shady events followed.

In the end, two men, one I am 99% sure was innocent, were prosecuted, convicted and ultimately executed in the electric chair less than a year later. That was the end of this story until about a year ago when I started down this really deep rabbit hole. That's when all of this new evidence was accidentally found that had been tucked away for eighty years in a dusty old attic. Now, I'm wanting to tell "the rest of the story".

Needless to say, this weapon holds lots of questions that I am desperately trying to answer in order to document this case as accurately as possible in my book. So my thoughts were, what a better place to ask, is in a forum of people who may hold some of the answers I need. Here are some of the questions I'm trying to answer ...

1. Were the .32-20 WESTERN and .32 WCF REM-UMC ammunitions interchangeable in the .32-20 revolver? I understand that one of them was possibly a rifle cartridge? I do have photos of the ammo that supposedly came out of the revolver if that helps.

2. Does anyone else find it odd that the only two empty cartridges were of the same ammo? As mentioned earlier, some really shady stuff went on and the weapon had a questionable chain of custody after the crime. It might also be important to mention that it was said that a second, shooter could have been involved who was using a .32 caliber revolver, the same caliber as the empty casings. However, this information only appeared in the "mystery statement" that was later found.

3. If the weapon is indeed an Eibar Spanish S&W clone, does anyone know of any source for finding the ID of the weapon using the serial number? I have not been able to find a source anywhere that gives any information on that serial number. I would really love to ID it and possibly find a photo of the same model of weapon.

4. Does anyone know if the cylinder on these weapons rotated clockwise or counter clockwise and if they were primarily single or double action?

5. The soft lead bullet that was removed from one of the victims weighed .99 grains but according to the F.B.I. report, it was mangled to the point to where ballistic matching to the weapon (which they also stated had a barrel in poor condition) was not possible. Taking into account the loss of material from passing through flesh and bone (shot in the back of the head with no exit wound) would this weight be consistent with either of the ammunitions that were said to be loaded into the .32-20 at the time? Would the bullet weights for the .32 and .32-20 be about the same?

6. The F.B.I. report stated that the empty shell casings that was sent to them for analysis were "Two .32-20 cartridge cases removed from revolver". It is important to know that the submission letter stated that the weapon was being sent, "loaded and with two empty shells in the same condition as it was found". However, according to the physical evidence that we have on hand, the two empties are clearly stamped .32 WCF REM-UMC. The sheriff, on the witness stand also states that the empties were .32-20. So ... did someone switch them and send different casings to the F.B.I. or is the nomenclature the same? I'm confused with that one.

Again, ANY information you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. It's really difficult to find information on an almost 100 year old weapon and when the information I do have has been screwed around with, it makes it a great deal harder. I am a female and although I was brought up a country gal, shooting weapons at a young age, this information is WAY above my level of knowledge. Thanks in advance. :)
 
Register to hide this ad
32-20, 32 WCF, and 32 Winchester are all different ways of saying the same thing. There are versions made to be shot in rifles only, with higher chamber pressures and bullet velocity. The rifle load will chamber and fire in a revolver, but it is not recommended, and could result in a catastrophic failure if the cylinder can't handle the increased pressure.
I'm not aware of any databases on the Spanish copies, which were made by several different companies.
Hopefully some more knowledgeable will come along and be of more help to you.
 
As Old Cop71 stated the .32-20, .32 WCF, AND .32 Winchester Center Fire are all the same cartridge, regardless of what company made them. There were lead bullet, jacketed soft point and jacketed hollow point variations. The hollow point was the rifle only load and should not be fired in revolvers. This cartridge was loaded with bullets variously weighing 60, 100, 115 and 125 grains. If the bullet the FBI had was weighed at 99 grain (not .99!!) it would be consistent with a 100 grain, or possibly 115 grain factory load after some loss penetrating a body.

" I was told by someone that it could possibly be a post WW1 Eibar S&W clone." If that "somebody" hadn't personally handled the gun it could well have been a "real" S&W too if the FBI report didn't specifically say. There were some Belgian S&W clones too, but I don't believe any were in .32-20.

Cosmetically the Spanish copies were identical to the S&W made guns. They were basically the K-frame .32-20 known as the Winchester model. The cylinders rotate counter-clockwise, just like "real" S&Ws. The major difference was in the internal lockwork which was of the Belgian Pieper type, which more closely resembles Colt internals than S&W. The Spanish guns were single/double-action, just like the S&W counterparts. Did I miss anything? Send me a PM if you have any other questions about these guns.

There were several Spanish makers of these copies, mostly in the area or Eibar, Spain. They were mostly in the late 1910s and 1920s, until S&W brought suit for copyright and patent infringement which made importation to the US illegal.

My question is why would the deputy have taken the gun outside to unload it? They function exactly like S&W guns and are not dangerous to operate normally, as long as the trigger isn't pulled!

These guns were variously chambered in .38 S&W Special, .38 Long Colt. 8mm French M1892, .32-20, and probably others.

I own one Spanish S&W copy, but have handled many others since 1962. The reason I bought this one is that it was so good a copy that I thought it was really an S&W, until I actually had it in my hands to examine closely. I have owned dozens of S&W during the past 60+ years and am intimately familiar with them. That is how good this copy is! It is the best example I have ever seen! Mine is a .32-20.
 
Last edited:
Sounds as convoluted as the 1982 murder in Little Rock involving Bill McArthur. Bill's dead now but there was a time when I would drink beer and play poker with him and his body guard. He told me to my face that he did it and his false arrest settlement against Pulaski County put a ton of money in his pocket. He would not tell me how much because of a NDA. Lots of crazy stuff going on in Arkansas back then.
 
Sounds as convoluted as the 1982 murder in Little Rock involving Bill McArthur. Bill's dead now but there was a time when I would drink beer and play poker with him and his body guard. He told me to my face that he did it and his false arrest settlement against Pulaski County put a ton of money in his pocket. He would not tell me how much because of a NDA. Lots of crazy stuff going on in Arkansas back then.
Lots of crazy stuff going on everywhere!
 
As Old Cop71 stated the .32-20, .32 WCF, AND .32 Winchester Center Fire are all the same cartridge, regardless of what company made them. There were lead bullet, jacketed soft point and jacketed hollow point variations. The hollow point was the rifle only load and should not be fired in revolvers. This cartridge was loaded with bullets variously weighing 60, 100, 115 and 125 grains. If the bullet the FBI had was weighed at 99 grain (not .99!!) it would be consistent with a 100 grain, or possibly 115 grain factory load after some loss penetrating a body.

" I was told by someone that it could possibly be a post WW1 Eibar S&W clone." If that "somebody" hadn't personally handled the gun it could well have been a "real" S&W too if the FBI report didn't specifically say. There were some Belgian S&W clones too, but I don't believe any were in .32-20.

Cosmetically the Spanish copies were identical to the S&W made guns. They were basically the K-frame .32-20 known as the Winchester model. The cylinders rotate counter-clockwise, just like "real" S&Ws. The major difference was in the internal lockwork which was of the Belgian Pieper type, which more closely resembles Colt internals than S&W. The Spanish guns were single/double-action, just like the S&W counterparts. Did I miss anything? Send me a PM if you have any other questions about these guns.

There were several Spanish makers of these copies, mostly in the area or Eibar, Spain. They were mostly in the late 1910s and 1920s, until S&W brought suit for copyright and patent infringement which made importation to the US illegal.

My question is why would the deputy have taken the gun outside to unload it? They function exactly like S&W guns and are not dangerous to operate normally, as long as the trigger isn't pulled!

These guns were variously chambered in .38 S&W Special, .38 Long Colt. 8mm French M1892, .32-20, and probably others.

I own one Spanish S&W copy, but have handled many others since 1962. The reason I bought this one is that it was so good a copy that I thought it was really an S&W, until I actually had it in my hands to examine closely. I have owned dozens of S&W during the past 60+ years and am intimately familiar with them. That is how good this copy is! It is the best example I have ever seen! Mine is a .32-20.
Thanks so much for that info! Its hard to tell exactly what the weapon was other than a .32-20 and the physicalities of it. The F.B.I. report was the first time I had seen the word "Spanish" attached to the description. The court ended up giving the weapon back to the deputy after the execution and I don't know what happened to it after that.

Why he took it outside to unload it is a mystery unlike many other actions that took place during this case. He claimed during testimony that he "was bothered and didn't know what he was doing" when it came to removing the weapon from the crime scene. However he denied unloading the weapon or even opening the chamber although there were witnesses that testified that they saw him do it. So ... who knows?

So do you believe that the .32-20 WESTERN and the .32 WCF REM-UMC are basically the same ammo and would be interchangeable in this weapon?
 
Western is an ammunition manufacturer. Remington UMC is an ammunition manufacturer. Western marking its ammo 32-20 and Remington marking theirs 32 WCF really doesn't mean anything.



I have 38 special ammunition from various manufacturers and some say it's 38 special and some say it's 38 Smith & Wesson special and some say it's 38 SPL ...


As for some of the cartridges being Western while others are Remington - they could either be reloaded, in which case the guy will load whatever empty brass he had. Or it could simply be that he had two Western left over. They come in a box of 50, and the gun holds six. You fully shoot the gun eight times and that's 48 rounds, and you have two rounds left over from the box. And then the next box of ammo he bought was Remington UMC. So he loaded the gun with two Westerns and then four remingtons. Perfectly normal.
 
Last edited:
I don't know if this will help you, or not; but, there is a lot of info on this Forum thread (click on the link). How's your Spanish? Note that the thread makes a lot of reference to the Spanish website "Catalogación de Armas."

There is also a book (see attached photo) with lots of subject information. A copy is being auctioned online for $34 OBO... Good luck!

History of Smith & Wesson Copies
 

Attachments

  • PXL_20250204_001942064.jpg
    PXL_20250204_001942064.jpg
    83.7 KB · Views: 14
Last edited:
New info ... I found records stating that just the .32-20 Spanish revolver in question is stamped "CTG". Can anyone tell me what that means and does it help any with identification of the weapon?
 
Pictures of the real S&W and ammo used

The below pictures are of my "real" (meaning NOT a Spanish copy) Smith & Wesson Model of 1905, 4th Change which is the title of the handgun. This one shipped from the factory in Massachusetts in October 1921 per the Smith & Wesson Historian.

The photos show you the general shape and markings characteristic of this Model. Mine is also chambered for 32-20 WCF CTG (which means 32-20 Winchester Centerfire).

I have seen and held in my hands, a Spanish copy of this handgun, but it was several years ago and I recall only that the wooden grips looked the same, but as to markings I do not recall much.

In any event, my revolver did NOT have "made in USA" stamped on the right side of the frame, underneath the cylinder, and I do not recall if the Spanish copy had "made in Spain" or equivalent markings.

The ammunition I have pictured below is although modern manufacture, the same appearance as it would have been 100 years ago (i.e. a brass case with a Lead Flat Nose, or sometimes a Lead Round Nose bullet, weighing either 100 grains, or 115 grains) which may support the theory that the bullet lost some lead during entry into flesh and bone. The 115 grain was more popular with revolvers whereas the 100 grain is more attuned to rifles of the same caliber, but that is ONLY CONJECTURE on my part. I am not a ballistics expert.:D

Hopefully you will come back and tell us about your book when published.........it sounds like it will be a very interesting read.
 

Attachments

  • 32-20 HE a.jpg
    32-20 HE a.jpg
    91 KB · Views: 20
  • 32-20 HE b.jpg
    32-20 HE b.jpg
    97 KB · Views: 18
  • 32-20 HE c.jpg
    32-20 HE c.jpg
    52 KB · Views: 15
  • 32-20 HE h.jpg
    32-20 HE h.jpg
    55.9 KB · Views: 16
  • 32-20-3.jpg
    32-20-3.jpg
    30.7 KB · Views: 23
And we don't want to muddy the waters by pointing out that a Spanish made revolver from the early 20th century sold as 32-20 or 32 WCF was likely actually chambered in 8mm Lebel or 8x27R. ;-D
 
This is a Spanish copy of a Smith & Wesson Model M&P (Military & Police) revolver manufactured by ALFA S.A. in Eibar sometime between 1920 & 1925 in .32-20 caliber. On top of the barrel it is labeled "U.S. Standard Ammunition" so, it was obviously made to sell in the United States civilian market at a fraction of what a Smith & Wesson M&P revolver would cost.
 

Attachments

  • pix111483148~3.jpg
    pix111483148~3.jpg
    59.5 KB · Views: 19
  • pix393382537~4.jpg
    pix393382537~4.jpg
    48.5 KB · Views: 18
  • pix576853916.jpg
    pix576853916.jpg
    42 KB · Views: 18
  • pix732115873~2.jpg
    pix732115873~2.jpg
    80.8 KB · Views: 17
  • pix218355983~2.jpg
    pix218355983~2.jpg
    28 KB · Views: 18
You guys have been so awesome and I really appreciate all of the knowledge you have sent my way on this weapon. This whole case has been like one huge onion with many, many layers you just have to peel back one at a time. There are so many discrepancies and questionable actions that I'm really trying to be as accurate as possible to get to the bottom of it all.

I do have one additional question about the ammo. So it has been established that both types of ammo that was loaded into the weapon (.32-20 WESTERN and the .32 WCF) could have both been fired in the .32-20 revolver in question. It has always been believed that there were two shooters and a possibility of another weapon involved. If so, it would have been a .32 caliber revolver that had been borrowed. My question is this ... The .32-20 revolver can shoot .32 ammo, but can the .32 revolver shoot the .32-20 ammo? For example, you can shoot a .38 Special in a 357 but not the other way around.
 
You guys have been so awesome and I really appreciate all of the knowledge you have sent my way on this weapon. This whole case has been like one huge onion with many, many layers you just have to peel back one at a time. There are so many discrepancies and questionable actions that I'm really trying to be as accurate as possible to get to the bottom of it all.

I do have one additional question about the ammo. So it has been established that both types of ammo that was loaded into the weapon (.32-20 WESTERN and the .32 WCF) could have both been fired in the .32-20 revolver in question. It has always been believed that there were two shooters and a possibility of another weapon involved. If so, it would have been a .32 caliber revolver that had been borrowed. My question is this ... The .32-20 revolver can shoot .32 ammo, but can the .32 revolver shoot the .32-20 ammo? For example, you can shoot a .38 Special in a 357 but not the other way around.
No. The case base diameter of the .32-20 cartridge is 0.353” while the .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, etc. is 0.335”. Therefore the .32 S&W series cartridges will fit into a .32-20 chamber but not Vice Versa. the 8mm Lebel cartridge has a base diameter of 0.384. Therefore, it cannot be inserted into a .32-20 chamber. But apparently a .32-20 cartridge can fit into an 8mm Lebel chamber. And that has been widelely reported as true. The problem is that the 8mm Lebel bullet is somewhat larger in diameter than the .32-20 bullet, so the .32-20 bullet is a sloppy fit in the 8mm Lebel barrel.
 
Last edited:
.32 vs 32-20

With regards to your last question, a .32 revolver would be chambered in .32 S&W Short, or .32 S&W Long. Neither of these would correctly fit in a 32-20 chamber, nor fire from a 32-20, and a 32-20 round would not fit at all in a .32 caliber revolver. The original 32 short and the 32 long have a relationship similar to the 38/357 relationship. The 32-20 cartridge is bottle-necked and longer than the other 32 rounds.
 
Back
Top