Need info on a .32-20 Spanish S&W clone

[Oscar Zulu]

I believe a member of the forum was familiar with, or investigated a case where a killing occurred by firing a .32 long out of a 32-20 chambered revolver. Something I think would be unlikely for a deputy or someone associated with a deputy would do. But an outlying possibility..

OZ

 

[DWalt]

I believe a member of the forum was familiar with, or investigated a case where a killing occurred by firing a .32 long out of a 32-20 chambered revolver. Something I think would be unlikely for a deputy or someone associated with a deputy would do. But an outlying possibility..

OZ

That is true, and several here have reported examples. I am one if them, an accidental fatal shooting by a friend long ago. Not exactly related, but I once mistakenly fired a cylinder full of .32-20 ammunition in a .38 Special revolver. They all hit the target.

 

[Tom K]

...
I do have one additional question about the ammo. So it has been established that both types of ammo that was loaded into the weapon (.32-20 WESTERN and the .32 WCF) could have both been fired in the .32-20 revolver in question. It has always been believed that there were two shooters and a possibility of another weapon involved. If so, it would have been a .32 caliber revolver that had been borrowed. My question is this ... The .32-20 revolver can shoot .32 ammo, but can the .32 revolver shoot the .32-20 ammo? For example, you can shoot a .38 Special in a 357 but not the other way around.

As a visual reference, here are some .32 caliber cartridges for comparison. Note that the .32 H&R Magnum and the .327 Federal Magnum are relatively recent cartridges and did not exist at the time you are researching.

1 - .32 blank
2 - .32 S&W
3 - .32 S&W Long
4 - .32 H&R Magnum
5 - .327 Federal Magnum
6 - .32-20

FYI, while it is possible to load a .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long into a .32-20 revolver and have it fire, these are relatively low pressure rounds. It's not recommended because the case body is smaller than the .32-20 and the brass will swell in the larger chamber. However if one is desperate and that is all that is on hand, it can be done.

Out of curiosity I tried chambering a .32 H&R and a .327 in one of my .32-20 revolvers and neither would fit, which is a good thing. The .327 in particular operates at approximately triple the pressure of the older cartridges.

 

[edl]

I think a gun similar to the one that you are referencing is for auction here. I realize that you probably don't want to buy it, but I ran across it after reading your post. It is not my gun nor do I have any relation to the seller:

Lot Detail - (C) SPANISH O.H. DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER.

 

[kstaines]

As a visual reference, here are some .32 caliber cartridges for comparison. Note that the .32 H&R Magnum and the .327 Federal Magnum are relatively recent cartridges and did not exist at the time you are researching.

1 - .32 blank
2 - .32 S&W
3 - .32 S&W Long
4 - .32 H&R Magnum
5 - .327 Federal Magnum
6 - .32-20

FYI, while it is possible to load a .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long into a .32-20 revolver and have it fire, these are relatively low pressure rounds. It's not recommended because the case body is smaller than the .32-20 and the brass will swell in the larger chamber. However if one is desperate and that is all that is on hand, it can be done.

Out of curiosity I tried chambering a .32 H&R and a .327 in one of my .32-20 revolvers and neither would fit, which is a good thing. The .327 in particular operates at approximately triple the pressure of the older cartridges.

This is great info. The reason I'm going down this path is because the chain of custody for this weapon after the murders was greatly compromised. In fact, the deputy in which the weapon belonged, picked it up at the crime scene and was seen unloading it. The opportunity was there to do some shady stuff. I'm trying to rule out the possibly these two empty .32 shells were slipped in to throw off the investigation. I figured that if the .32 shells wouldn't fit the chamber of the .32-20, that would be proof that there was indeed an additional weapon used. Interestingly enough, the deputy (who was accused of hiring the hit on the couple) borrowed a .32 from a guy when he discovered his .32-20 was "stolen". I have attached photos of the ammo. I noticed that one appeared to have a shouldered casing. That was the reason I asked about the fit.

 

[kstaines]

I think a gun similar to the one that you are referencing is for auction here. I realize that you probably don't want to buy it, but I ran across it after reading your post. It is not my gun nor do I have any relation to the seller:

Lot Detail - (C) SPANISH O.H. DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER.

I actually found this a little while back and got in touch with this guy. He offered to help me with some info but he never got back to me. From what he did say however, this weapon was very similar to what I was inquiring about.

 

[kstaines]

With regards to your last question, a .32 revolver would be chambered in .32 S&W Short, or .32 S&W Long. Neither of these would correctly fit in a 32-20 chamber, nor fire from a 32-20, and a 32-20 round would not fit at all in a .32 caliber revolver. The original 32 short and the 32 long have a relationship similar to the 38/357 relationship. The 32-20 cartridge is bottle-necked and longer than the other 32 rounds.

I have attached photos of both of the ammo that was supposedly in the weapon. The casings "appear" to be approx. the same length. I have not measured (as of yet) the diameter of the casings. I did notice however that the 32 casing on the right appeared to be shouldered and wondered if that would make a difference. Of course I have no bullets to compare except the ones that came out of the victim's heads and they are mangled. If neither the .32 S&W Short, or .32 S&W Long are able to be shot out of the 32-20 I guess I'm a bit confused on how this 32 ammo got in there. I take it that I should not be trying to compare apples to apples here.

 

[Alpo]

A couple of people up the thread have said that a 32 Smith & Wesson will not fire in a 32/20. This is not correct.


In the first picture below there is both a 32 Smith & Wesson long and a 32/20 Winchester in a 32/20 cylinder. As you can see, the 32 Smith & Wesson rim is much smaller in diameter, but still it is wide enough to hold the cartridge in place. It will fire. The case will swell greatly, because the chamber is much bigger around. The case may even split. But it will fire.



The second picture has a 32 Smith & Wesson long and a 32/20 Winchester sitting in a 32 Smith & Wesson long cylinder. And as you can plainly see, the Winchester round will not fit in the hole. Maybe the first quarter of an inch goes in, but the rest of the cartridge is too wide to fit.

 

[kstaines]

A couple of people up the thread have said that a 32 Smith & Wesson will not fire in a 32/20. This is not correct.


In the first picture below there is both a 32 Smith & Wesson long and a 32/20 Winchester in a 32/20 cylinder. As you can see, the 32 Smith & Wesson rim is much smaller in diameter, but still it is wide enough to hold the cartridge in place. It will fire. The case will swell greatly, because the chamber is much bigger around. The case may even split. But it will fire.

The second picture has a 32 Smith & Wesson long and a 32/20 Winchester sitting in a 32 Smith & Wesson long cylinder. And as you can plainly see, the Winchester round will not fit in the hole. Maybe the first quarter of an inch goes in, but the rest of the cartridge is too wide to fit.

Thank you. This is great information. So the 32, being smaller in diameter, would this cause some slop in the chamber? And do you think this could also cause an offset firing pin mark because both of the 32 shells that were supposedly fired in the 32-20 had this. (see photo attached of the two 32 casings)

The casings didn't look damaged in any way (other than them being almost 90 years old). No cracks though that could be seen. They could be swollen some but not readily noticeable. I did notice that the 32 casing looked to be a shouldered round (see pic, 32 casing is on the right, 32-20 round is on the left) and it appears that the shoulder has pretty much straightened out. You can just still see the mark where the shoulder was. So there could have been some swelling. I plan on taking another look at them this week and put some calipers on each to get some measurements. I should know more after that about any possible swelling. Again, thank you! I'm very appreciative of any information about the gun or ammo that is sent my way.

 

[Muley Gil]

I worked two murders where the killer used a .32-20 revolver loaded with .32 S&W Long cartridges.

Not all revolvers, even those from good manufacturers like Smith & Wesson and Colt, strike the primer directly in the center.

The .32-20 cartridge (also known as the .32 Winchester Center or Central Fire, the .32 WCF and as the .32 Winchester cartridge) has a slight taper or shoulder. Depending on the shape of the chambers, this taper can or will disappear and appear to be a straight wall round.

I owned a .32-20 S&W revolver while I was in college. One of my roommates liked it and bought a Spanish copy. Fired cartridges from the Spanish revolver had no taper but did have a distinct shoulder near the case mouth, almost like a Weatherby rifle round.

 

[Alk8944]

This is specifically for Kay since she is doing legitimate research for a book I feel she should know everything that can be provided accurately. Everyone who has posted on this thread needs to read it!

There has been so much incorrect information in posts above regarding .32-20 ammunition and revolvers it is pathetic! I will try to clarify the ammunition question about what can and cannot be. All of this is based on my personal experience, research, and observation over the past 60+ years of shooting many different firearms chambered variously in .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .32-20, .32 ACP, and even 8MM Revolver! The following is what I know to be absolutely true!

What can be fired in .32-20 revolvers, whether correct for the gun or not and why. Only factory ammunition is considered:

Kay asked about the differences in .32-20 and it's various designations. Any ammunition head stamped .32-20, .32 WCF or .32 Winchester center fire since they are all the same cartridge manufactured by any company, and at any time from 1873 until today. There is one exception to this and is the 60 grain Jacketed round-nosed hollow-point rifle only load. It has not been produced for about 65 years, so it really is not an issue. It is noteworthy that early ammunition in this caliber was loaded in a straight-tapered case, even though it was fired in guns with bottle-necked chambers! As a result .32-20 ammunition will be found in both styles, but all is inter changeable. Now, the rest of what can or cannot be fired in .32-20 guns:

Any .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long; While the case body of these is smaller than .32-20 the rim is large enough to support the cartridge so it will fire normally. Because of body diameter difference these will expand or "bulge" greatly, possibly even split, but this is not a safety issue.

.32 ACP; While this will not be properly supported in a .32-20 chamber it can be fired in those guns. Again, the case will be badly bulged, possibly split, but they can be fired. The trick is to raise the gun muzzle to vertical to seat the cartridge against the guns breech before pulling the trigger. This had been mentioned in one of the "gun rags" many years ago, so I had to try it! I have fired this in my .32-20 revolvers and every cartridge fired normally! Yes, the cases were badly bulged.

Now, what cannot be fired in a .32-20;
.32 H&R Magnum or .327 Federal. The case of these is too long, and the case neck too large to fit into the neck area of a .32-20 due to the case neck being thicker!

8mm Lebel aka 8/27R, again the neck is too large and probably will not be able to be chambered in a .32-20. The Spanish "replicas" of S&W revolvers may have loose enough chamber dimensions so they will chamber either cartridge.

The following is about my Spanish copy only. I know it is "commonly believed" that the .32-20 marked guns can often be actually chambered for the 8mm Lebel aka 8mm Ordnance cartridge. When I first bought my .32-20 marked Spanish copy it would not accept modern .32-20 ammunition in bottle-neck cases! It was, apparently, chambered for either the 8mm Lebel or early style straight-taper .32-20 as was still the norm in the 1920s when these copies were made! As a result, I cleaned up the chambers with a new .32-20 revolver chamber reamer so it will now accept current .32-20 ammunition. Very little metal was removed by the reamer.

Again, note that I still own and shoot guns in all of the calibers mentioned above. None of this is either my simple opinion or guess work based on cartridge drawing dimensions only as some of the other posts obviously were! This entire post shouldn't have been necessary if others would not post opinions and guesses based on assumptions and not fact!

A PM has been sent to Kay to call her attention to this information

 

[Tom K]

Thank you. This is great information. So the 32, being smaller in diameter, would this cause some slop in the chamber? And do you think this could also cause an offset firing pin mark because both of the 32 shells that were supposedly fired in the 32-20 had this. (see photo attached of the two 32 casings)

The casings didn't look damaged in any way (other than them being almost 90 years old). No cracks though that could be seen. They could be swollen some but not readily noticeable. I did notice that the 32 casing looked to be a shouldered round (see pic, 32 casing is on the right, 32-20 round is on the left) and it appears that the shoulder has pretty much straightened out. You can just still see the mark where the shoulder was. So there could have been some swelling. I plan on taking another look at them this week and put some calipers on each to get some measurements. I should know more after that about any possible swelling. Again, thank you! I'm very appreciative of any information about the gun or ammo that is sent my way.

The loaded cartridge and empty case that you show are both .32-20, aka .32 WCF , aka .32 Winchester. The headstamp tells you this. They are for all intents and purposes identical. Certainly neither is short enough to be a .32 S&W Long.

The only reason that the empty case might look a little more "bottlenecked" than the loaded round is that it has been fired, and has taken the shape of the chamber of the gun it was fired from. The .32-20 was originally loaded with black powder (.32 caliber bullet, 20 grains of black powder, although by 1943 probably any ammunition available would use modern "smokeless" powder). As manufactured, cases might not have the exact bottleneck shape to match the chamber and have just more of a general body taper.

Plus, there are simply the vagaries of different manufacturers producing the same nominal ammunition. One might have a more distinct bottleneck shape than another.

The off-center firing pin strike is simply a characteristic of the individual gun used. An "identical" firearm from the same company might hit dead center. Again, the vagaries of manufacturing.

 

[Drm50]

REM and Win hated to put the others name on a cartridge.No free PR. According to Barnes in Cartridges of the World you can use 32/20 in 8mm
Lebel revolvers. It with fire, splitting case and bullet goes somewhere out
muzzle.
I’ve had Spanish S&W knock offs that have stamped in barrel to use the cartridge that fits the best. No Joke.
Quality runs from tolerable to junk.

 

[Alk8944]

REM and Win hated to put the others name on a cartridge.No free PR. According to Barnes in Cartridges of the World you can use 32/20 in 8mm
Lebel revolvers. It with fire, splitting case and bullet goes somewhere out
muzzle.
I’ve had Spanish S&W knock offs that have stamped in barrel to use the cartridge that fits the best. No Joke.
Quality runs from tolerable to junk.

It is typical to see words to the effect of "American best cartridges are those that fit best the (xx) with the xx identifying the company that made that particular revolver. This has been seen on all the Spanish clones I have seen as I recall and this is probably what drm50 remembers seeing. This is exactly the statement on my Spanish copy, it is in my lap right now! The company which made it was OV, OJANGUREN Y VIDOSA, one of several companies in the Oviedo, Spain area. The stocks on this gun are of the post 1920 style, convex horns, no medallions. There is nothing on the gun to identify the maker except the OV in the cartridge remark on the barrel, no logos or medallions. The only thing identifying it as being of Spanish make is a very small 'Spain' stamped in the frame arch behind the trigger guard and quite easy to overlook.

My copy is so good, as I mentioned above in an earlier post in this thread, that I believe any of us just seeing it in a display case would think it is a real S&W. The only things that look out of place are the caliber, being marked on left side of barrel, the Spain, very small SN on the butt, and no "made in USA" on the frame, and no strain screw. Rifling looks as good as any S&W except narrow lands. It is 5 grooves, right twist. You have to get into the Pieper type lockwork to see any other difference from a S&W! As I recall the first thing I noticed to know it wasn't "real" was when I got it in-hand and there was not a strain screw. Then there was the ammunition remark.

I have never been interested in the Spanish copies, but this one is so good that I had to have it, even after knowing is was a Spanish gun. I have had it over 30 years and believe I paid only $100 or less for it. The gun is absolutely un-molested except the chamber clean-up. No buggered screws or cold blue anywhere! I have many S&Ws I wish were so clean!

Sorry, but no photos on my computer to attach here.

Damn but I wish this thread would end.

 

[DAMDAN]

It is typical to see words to the effect of "American best cartridges are those that fit best the (xx) with the xx identifying the company that made that particular revolver. This has been seen on all the Spanish clones I have seen as I recall and this is probably what drm50 remembers seeing. This is exactly the statement on my Spanish copy, it is in my lap right now! The company which made it was OV, OJANGUREN Y VIDOSA, one of several companies in the Oviedo, Spain area. The stocks on this gun are of the post 1920 style, convex horns, no medallions. There is nothing on the gun to identify the maker except the OV in the cartridge remark on the barrel, no logos or medallions. The only thing identifying it as being of Spanish make is a very small 'Spain' stamped in the frame arch behind the trigger guard and quite easy to overlook.

My copy is so good, as I mentioned above in an earlier post in this thread, that I believe any of us just seeing it in a display case would think it is a real S&W. The only things that look out of place are the caliber, being marked on left side of barrel, the Spain, very small SN on the butt, and no "made in USA" on the frame, and no strain screw. Rifling looks as good as any S&W except narrow lands. It is 5 grooves, right twist. You have to get into the Pieper type lockwork to see any other difference from a S&W! As I recall the first thing I noticed to know it wasn't "real" was when I got it in-hand and there was not a strain screw. Then there was the ammunition remark.

I have never been interested in the Spanish copies, but this one is so good that I had to have it, even after knowing is was a Spanish gun. I have had it over 30 years and believe I paid only $100 or less for it. The gun is absolutely un-molested except the chamber clean-up. No buggered screws or cold blue anywhere! I have many S&Ws I wish were so clean!

Sorry, but no photos on my computer to attach here.

Damn but I wish this thread would end.

Thank you. This is great information. So the 32, being smaller in diameter, would this cause some slop in the chamber? And do you think this could also cause an offset firing pin mark because both of the 32 shells that were supposedly fired in the 32-20 had this. (see photo attached of the two 32 casings)

The casings didn't look damaged in any way (other than them being almost 90 years old). No cracks though that could be seen. They could be swollen some but not readily noticeable. I did notice that the 32 casing looked to be a shouldered round (see pic, 32 casing is on the right, 32-20 round is on the left) and it appears that the shoulder has pretty much straightened out. You can just still see the mark where the shoulder was. So there could have been some swelling. I plan on taking another look at them this week and put some calipers on each to get some measurements. I should know more after that about any possible swelling. Again, thank you! I'm very appreciative of any information about the gun or ammo that is sent my way.

The 32-20 wcf has been a part of my life since 1952. I have never been without one or more since that time, long ago. Alk8944 is giving you the straight story. What I really want to know is the books name and publisher, or when it will be published. please let us know Kay. thank you so much.