Need some help & thoughts on a 1878 S&W model 1 1/2

[4xfourfun]

I'm looking for some opinions and insight on a model 1 1/2, serial number in the 4K range.

It is accompanied by a S&W letter that says it was shipped in 1878 to their largest distributor, Robinson of New York City. While it was originally shipped nickel plated it had no engraving. The letter mentioned the engraving was probably handled by Robinson since he did many special orders. There are no initials to be found with the engraving.

What are your over thoughts on it and it's collectibility? How would I value it? I've been looking at auctions but they are across the board and had hoped to find a realistic #.

 

[4xfourfun]

 

[Frontiersman_]

That sure is a pretty revolver.

The market is small, but unique on these. It's worth as much as someone is willing to pay. I expect there are other similar examples you could use for a guide.

I'll look forward to seeing the expert opinions.

 

[H Richard]

I'm not an expert, but I'll try and make some "SWAG" guesses. The condition appears to be very good +. I sold several within the past year, a couple in similar condition (not engraved), and they went in the $350 to $500 range. I'd est the engraving (not factory) would add another $300 - $500. So, potential $600 to $1000.

Any gun is worth just what a buyer is willing to pay on any particular day.
It is desirable, and I wish you much luck if you are planing to sell, but keeping in in your collection is more fun. (Unless you are old like me and gradually selling off your collection).

 

[mmaher94087]

I agree that the engraving is in the NY style and the blue hammer (missing the tip of the spur) is typical of these embellished revolvers. I'm not good at estimating prices but the "Dogs Head" on the side plate is uncommon and should command a premium in my thinking.

 

[opoefc]

I generally agree with the above comments. It's a narrow market for these but the NY engraving seems nice and the "panel" is always a plus for these. I'd put it at around $800 + or - Ed

 

[BMur]

Engraving

I agree with the above assessments....

My only addition is the circular panel with what I think is a mountain lion's head? Is not uncommon on Merwin and Hulbert guns manufactured at the Hopkins and Allen plant in Norwich, Ct. Then sent to Merwin & Hulbert in New York... New York engraving is what is typically seen applied on these guns but the quality on your gun in my opinion is much better than standard and has a very nice appeal to it. Which translates to value.

However, To achieve maximum value you must have that hammer spur damage repaired or the hammer replaced though. A antique gun in this condition absolutely needs to have no significant blemishes like that. Sticks out like a sore thumb!


Murph

 

[4xfourfun]

Thanks for the replies guys. I really didn't know what would be a good figure to have in mind. You hear ideas across the board and I know the value can swing either way. The guy believed it was worth more then that, maybe at auction possibly? The S&W letter is pretty neat with some good info, apparently the distributor it went to in NY was a big one and S&W felt the custom work may have been done there which I guess was common. Here is a close up, it does appear to be a mountain lion head I believe:

Murph, was the hammer originally color cased or just bare steel on these? So if I'm taking that right some were known to have the hammers shortened?

 

[mmaher94087]

The panel morphed from a dog to a mountain lion. Neat. Thanks for the closeup. The blue trigger and hammer were dealer embellishments. The 'shortened' hammer spur was most likely a biproduct of the revolver being dropped. The dealers were not known to purposely bob the hammers.

 

[BMur]

Slip gun?

What Mike said...

Also, the hammer and triggers were case colored from the factory. You know also, this gun being in the 4,000 serial number range? It should lack the strain screw? and it's a first year production...So, 1878...those are good things I suppose...but the engraving didn't happen in my opinion right away...That's a later engraving with the squiggly lines on the barrel? Those are electric applied normally....So, 1890's.. The owner might have taken it to the Distributor to be custom engraved at a later date...That would be my bet.

I don't agree with your buddy and his assessment on the value. The .32 Single action centerfire saw some pretty high production numbers...."Generally speaking" they don't command the same value as the larger caliber models unless they have rare features...Like a longer barrel, "OR" if it was a factory engraved gun that letters as such?

What you are talking about with the hammer?
There is a very interesting history to shortening the hammer spur to create a "slip gun" of sorts...Smith and Wesson's don't compliment that modification due to the action design includes the spur trigger to spring the bolt open...So you can't keep your trigger finger on the trigger and "Slip" the action or "Fan" the hammer because it will jam.. Shortening the hammer spur on These would be a bad idea. The Smith and Wesson concept was accurate shooting....not fast action fanning...

I have personally tried that concept using a few spur trigger antique revolvers in my collection that have the earlier design action that allows you hold the trigger down with the strong hand and fan or "slip" the action.....best done with the weak hand thumb using the hand over hand double grip? It only works at close range but is definitely very impressive shooting and fast. The Remington smoots, Colts, H&A's, Bacons, etc all compliment this type of fast shooting.

Murph

 

[glowe]

Bobbed hammer is a big deal with me. I am sure that another hammer can be found and would actively seek out a new hammer for that gun. As for condition, I do not agree with the very good assessment, but think it would be a difficult gun to fit into any standard grading system. Supica states that a period non-factory engraved gun can bring from 25% to 100% premium and that is most likely the reason why value assessments are all over the place for a revolver of this type. I am not a collector of engraved revolvers, but would classify yours as still looking as it did the day it was sold by the distributor back in 1878 and that is a BIG plus.

I see 100% finish and nicely engraving that was done before being sold as a new gun. The pearl stocks are a plus as well. If the hammer was replaced, the entry level collectors of engraved revolvers would be fighting to own it. My opinion is that it would easily sell at $600 and would likely bring more at auction.

For comparison here is a $3000 factory engraved 32 Single Action.

 

[BMur]

Engraving/ Finish

I zoomed in on your last photo. I'm seeing some pitting that's been buffed in the cylinder flutes so in my opinion the Distributor refurbished this gun at the time of engraving. Still thinking the 1890's.


*** Also noticed it has a main spring strain screw so the 4K serial number range must not be accurate?

Murph

 

[Frontiersman_]

That Bob Cat is really neat.

I'd be proud to own it.

 

[mmaher94087]

I suspect that the " 4K range." is a typo. I believe the OP intended it to be '40K' range. There are known examples of the eccentric strain screw in the 6,000's.

 

[dltvette]

I suspect that the " 4K range." is a typo. I believe the OP intended it to be '40K' range. There are known examples of the eccentric strain screw in the 6,000's.

Mike,
Not to hijack this thread, but my grandfathers .32 SA is serial number 7692 and has the eccentric strain screw. Factory letter (Oct. 2014 ) states this is the highest serial number recorded.
Dave

 

[BMur]

Easy Research!

Talk about lucky!

I spend countless hours researching and surveying and here the absolute answer pops up from a member with factory record reference....I wonder why they recorded that change? I guess Mike's research is complete.

I also find the factory letter information very interesting. The statement that the cam adjustment type screw was "discontinued" at serial number 6500? and yet here we have a serial number over 1000 higher than that number having the discontinued feature? Does that mean there was an overlap? and if so, why? Doesn't make much sense to me. Unless they found a box of cam screws at the factory and decided to use them up?

Murph

 

[dltvette]

Talk about lucky!

I spend countless hours researching and surveying and here the absolute answer pops up from a member with factory record reference....I wonder why they recorded that change? I guess Mike's research is complete.

I also find the factory letter information very interesting. The statement that the cam adjustment type screw was "discontinued" at serial number 6500? and yet here we have a serial number over 1000 higher than that number having the discontinued feature? Does that mean there was an overlap? and if so, why? Doesn't make much sense to me. Unless they found a box of cam screws at the factory and decided to use them up?

Murph

Murph,
In a response I received from Roy, he stated, serial number 7692 is the highest number I have recorded for this type of strain screw adjustment shipped September 1878, the previous high number I have recorded is 6802 and it was shipped August 1878.
Dave

 

[BMur]

Factory Records

Thanks for clearing that up Dave,

So the 6500 serial number range was the time of initial changeover. There must have been an overlap in production.

My research on such things has always been determined to be based on "using up" remaining parts until exhausted at the plant.

However, this is somewhat odd since it was a definite improvement to the design replacing the cam with the strain screw. In my perspective there should be no overlap.

I have a couple of these early guns in my collection and I can see why they were replaced.


Murph

 

[collector-not]

4k range

I suspect that the " 4K range." is a typo. I believe the OP intended it to be '40K' range. There are known examples of the eccentric strain screw in the 6,000's.

The gun is in the 4k range SN#48XX

 

[collector-not]

I zoomed in on your last photo. I'm seeing some pitting that's been buffed in the cylinder flutes so in my opinion the Distributor refurbished this gun at the time of engraving. Still thinking the 1890's.


*** Also noticed it has a main spring strain screw so the 4K serial number range must not be accurate?

Murph

This is a little better photo