Negligent Discharge - Happens in an instant!

[Rastoff]

A mag safety would have prevented the OP's accidental discharge.

No it would not have prevented this. Remember, he pulled the trigger intentionally to feel how it would feel. If his gun had a mag disconnect, he would have inserted a mag so he could feel the trigger.

Mag disconnects and thumb safeties only help in those times when you don't intend to pull the trigger. All safeties are removed when intentionally pulling the trigger.

 

[-db-]

It can happen to anyone, anytime. It will not happen to everyone. But that will occur only through diligence and luck..

Again, I disagree. The fact is it CANNOT happen to anyone who practices due diligence when handling firearms.

People need to stop with this "It can happen to anyone" or "Almost everyone's going to have one" stuff. Not only are these statements not true, they foster the wrong (a forgiving, unserious) mindset. These are things people who have had (or can easily imagine themselves having) one say. Nobody likes to feel like they're an oddball who screwed-up so they come up with this stuff to make themselves feel better, that's all it is.

I'm reminded of Jeff Cooper on the topic (The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning, p. 222):

Too much is heard about firearms "accidents". Strictly speaking, a mishap with a gun which is truly an accident occurs about as often as Haley's Comet. A large sign on most Marine Corps ranges reads "There Is No Such Thing As An Accident On This Range." Unintentional discharge of a firearm is due to stupidity or ignorance on the part of a person, and is not unavoidable. Possibly one case in 10,000 is a true accident, due to failure of the mechanism. And in this one case, if the weapon is properly handled, the shot will be fired in a safe direction. A person whose stupidity causes an inadvertent discharge must be harshly dealt with. He must not be allowed to feel that "it can happen to anybody" and to laugh it off...

 

[claudel]

Almost...

I was practicing pocket draw & replacement a couple of days ago and
during one of the insertions my shiny new 649-3 went "click".


Ooops.

Not sure what I did. I know I didn't have my finger on the trigger. Probably not.


Glad I had enough foresight to make sure it wouldn't go "bang"...

No live ammo in the room when dry firing/practice drawing.

Ever

Check three times, check again.

One "almost" was close enough for me...

 

[Jaymo]

Keep yer booger hook off the bang switch and it won't happen.
At least, that's my conclusion after I had mine in 1992.
A couple years later, my best bud blew out my passenger side window with a 7.62x25 MagSafe round.
(From inside the car) He had the funniest stupefied look on his face.

 

[Benedons]

Thanks for that important lesson.
I've been carrying for 35 years, no incidents, thank God, BUT:
Know a guy who was demonstrating the safety of a Smith 44 special revolver, WHILE LOADED and blew his pinky off. Why he had it loaded, I have no idea, didn't want to ask, was recently and he's still a bit upset about it.

 

[mac12]

Thank you for the reminder that we can never ever be too cautious.

 

[Old TexMex]

Please see: "Walker Fire Control" for example of accidental discharge.
Before the Remington model 600 / 700 recall, unloading could cause a discharge, as could moving the safety to the "off safe" position.
Much different from negligent discharge, but still doesn't relieve the handler from responsibility of muzzle direction.

Note: legally, Remington Arms was held "negligent", so maybe there aren't any "accidental discharges" after all....

 

[Mcwsky09]

Again, I disagree. The fact is it CANNOT happen to anyone who practices due diligence when handling firearms.

People need to stop with this "It can happen to anyone" or "Almost everyone's going to have one" stuff. Not only are these statements not true, they foster the wrong (a forgiving, unserious) mindset. These are things people who have had (or can easily imagine themselves having) one say. Nobody likes to feel like they're an oddball who screwed-up so they come up with this stuff to make themselves feel better, that's all it is.

I'm reminded of Jeff Cooper on the topic (The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning, p. 222):

While I agree that a ND will not necessarily happen to everyone at some point the purpose of the safety rules helps to avoid turning a ND into an accidental shooting. Again, not saying forget any consideration that you are the cause of the ND regardless of any safety rules or dependence on the rules as your ONLY layer of protection from catastrophe.
I don't think you would argue that there is the potential for an ND to happen to anyone - since even the most careful and diligent and methodical person might still have a momentary lapse.
I don't think you can even say that statistically a person who shoots 30,000 rounds a year is any more or less likely to have a ND than a person who shoots only 300 rounds a year, especially since the round count tells you nothing about how the firearms are handled. Unless the 300 rounds per year guy is dry firing 30,000 times a year - you would likely be safe in saying that the 30,000/yr guy has more opportunities for something to go wrong but he also has greater familiarity with the firearm and how it functions etc.
Even if you have a statistical tracking of the number of NDs per number of rounds fired (or some other metric such as magazines chambered, etc) you still could not say that a particular individual has an X% chance of ND - things like actuarial tables only provide probability across a population. So if you had data on the number of firearm owners and number of rounds fired and number of NDs etc over a period of time you could make predictions of how many to expect in the future - but no good way to predict each individual's risk.
That is akin to taking a number such as the number of people struck by lighting each year and then deciding you have a given risk level without taking into account that you live in Tornado Alley or wherever the lowest incident occurs. Unless some significant fraction of the population was getting struck by lighting every year you would not say that getting struck by lighting will eventually happen to everyone - and even if it was tens of thousands of people per year that still would not mean EVERYONE would eventually be.

 

[686-380]

Paints a vivid picture...

Actually, I was stunned and said nothing. I was living at home at the time and my father heard the shot. He screamed my name and ran for the stairs. I met him at the top Nd told him I was ok. He began to tremble uncontrollably. He thought I had shot myself. That's why I remember it so vividly. Seeing my tough old Irish father crying.

That would be enough for me to be indelibly etched in my soul. Thanks for starting this informative, thought-provoking thread!

 

[hittman77]

Quick ...... somebody please pass a law about texting and shooting .....

Would like to say I've never done that but; I'd be a liar.

 

[AZ_M&P]

As a followup to my original post -

Again, my ND (or stupid should-never-happen unless you're an ignorant slob move as some believe) occurred when I was reloading the weapon after cleaning it and allowed myself to get distracted - not during dry fire practice.

I regularly practice holster drills at my gun club (permitted if you're "holster qualified") but I confine my drills to OWB carry, conventional draw. I don't practice drawing from concealed, mag swap with retention, etc. because even though I'm "qualified", IMO the stakes are too high if I make a mistake with a charged weapon on the line with other shooters around.

Enter LaserLyte... I purchased the trainer and some targets a few weeks ago and I think it's probably one of the best SAFE training tools around. After dropping the magazine and clearing the bore, simply insert the trainer, set up the targets, and go. I can safely draw and shoot from any retention position, body position, etc. and replicate any scenario I choose. This tool gets a big A+ from me.

 

[kbm6893]

Not a Quantum Leap fan are you?


The first words that Sam said in every episode of Quantum Leap were 'Oh boy"

I know. Big fan. It was the last episode where Sam changed history for Al and went back and told his wife he was a POW and was coming home. She never remarried and Al came home to her, staying happily married instead of the womanizer he had been when she left. Sam never returned home. The miner who Sam saw leap made him realize he wasn't the only leaper and he was doing "God's Work". Almost. like an angel Series indicated he continued to leap through history setting things right.

 

[eveled]

At the range one day my Dad shot himself in the thigh with the staple gun. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard in my life, the look on his face was priceless.

 

[semperfi71]

-db-,

You took my post completely out of context and emphasized only a portion of the entire comment.

My last two sentences of your quote from my post is correct and the same as your response. To whit; "It will not happen to everyone. But that will occur only through diligence and luck."

No matter how careful anyone is, if they do not exercise good safety habits they will have a discharge.

It can happen to anyone if they do not practice good safety habits.

However EVERYONE is always capable of having a "brain fade" no matter how much they practice good safety habits. In that case ANYONE is capable of having a discharge. And the older most folks get, the more brain fades they can have.

And...if someone is having one too many "brain fades" its time to hang it up with guns and find something safer.

Roy Rogers Jr. removed a part/parts from Roy Rogers Sr.'s progressive press telling his Father it was broke and he'd get around to repairing it later, which he never did. His Father was getting too forgetful to be safe.

When I was in the Marines (1971-1975) I never saw any signs at the rifle ranges I was on. We knew if we screwed up we'd get our rear-end kicked and we saw it happen.

 

[.455Eley]

Well I can add my name to this list, unfortunately. Just yesterday I found a Model 39-2 in a local pawn shop and just had to have it. It's the first semi auto I've had in a long time and I'd been doing a lot of dry fire practice this afternoon. I decided to take it out to shoot it a little before dark so I loaded it but had to set it down because the dogs got to acting up. I came back several minutes later and resumed my practice, one time. Through the bedroom wall, across the hallway and into the bathroom ceiling. From now on I dry fire on the porch.

 

[M29since14]

Thanks for the story - and the reminder. Glad no one was hurt.

Remember a couple of "rules" - NO ammunition in the same room when you are dry-firing. NO dry-firing at a target that would result in tragedy "if destroyed."

Mercifully, like many of us, you got a "cheap" lesson.

 

[Kanewpadle]

As I stated before, there is NEVER a reason for an ND. Never. If one follows the simple, basic rules of firearms safety, stuff like this just doesn't happen.

 

[Rastoff]

Some get bent out of shape when I list these rules. So, remember what you paid for them.

We've all heard the phrase, "More people are shot by unloaded guns..." Even though that is physically impossible, most of us understand the meaning. Well, it's real. This short list will help keep you and your family safe while practicing without ammo at home.

• Unload your gun. This may sound obvious, but if it were, there would never be a negligent discharge (ND) at home.
• -
• Designate a dry practice area. If possible, pick a place that has a back stop with some ability to stop a bullet. A brick or cinder block wall is good or a wall facing a dirt hill is good too. It doesn't matter where this area is, but NEVER take ammo into this area. ALWAYS unload the gun and magazines before entering this area. Treat this area as sacred. If you have your carry gun strapped to you, don't go in this area.
• -
• Put up a target. It doesn't matter what it is, just be sure to put it up. A 3" sticky note works great. DO NOT use a permanent fixture. I can't emphasize this enough. I actually have a friend who was practicing his trigger control by pointing at guys on the TV. Yep, you guessed it, he got a brand new plasma TV, just a little sooner than he wanted. More on this later.
• -
• Say out loud, "I'm starting dry practice." Sound dumb? It's not. This alerts anyone that might hear you to what you're doing. It is also a stronger clue to yourself of what you're doing. It helps trigger that inner sense of heightened safety. Do a chamber check and magazine check at the beginning. (If you don't know what that is, just ask. I have all day.)
• -
• Set a time limit. The average attention span to achieve quality learning is about 20 minutes. You can practice for hours if you like, just break it up into sessions not longer than 20 minutes.
• -
• Do your practice. Trigger control, follow through, malfunction drills, whatever you feel like doing. Earlier in the thread I talked about a "wall drill". This is a good time to do that. You have your temporary target up and can use it because you're in your designated area where you're sure there's no ammo, right?
• -
• When you're done with your practice session, say out loud, "I'm done with dry practice", take down your target and leave the dry practice area. Again, this emphasizes the actions you're taking and ingrains a better level of safety.
• -
• Under no circumstances say, "One more time." This will eventually lead to disaster. I know of one fellow who was doing dry practice and using a picture on his wall for a target (here's another reason that's bad). He finished and loaded up his carry gun to head off to work. As he was headed out the door, he saw that picture and thought, "Just one more time." This time he had a loaded gun and put a hole in the picture and the wall. Thankfully he had a solid wall behind it and the round didn't continue to his neighbor's house.

I've had a lot of guys get upset when I mention these simple rules. Most of the rules should seem so obvious that it leaves you wondering why I would say them. Still, some think I'm questioning their manhood or something because I suggest not using the TV for a target. If you want to use your TV, fine. Just don't come crying here when you have to buy another.

Complacency is the biggest cause of NDs in the gun world. By following these rules the chance of a ND is lowered a great deal.

If you get distracted during dry practice, the phone rings or your wife makes you take out the trash etc., start over from the beginning when you come back.

I have broken many of these rules myself. Fortunately, I haven't had a ND. Alas, I'm human and as such, fallible. By following these rules, it makes us all safer.

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.
2. Always be aware of your muzzle and only point it at something you're willing to destroy.
3. Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are pointed at your intended target.
4. Always know your target and what is in line with it. It's not enough to know the target and what's beyond. You have to be sure no one can walk in between you and the target.

 

[Mainsail]

Just to hammer safety home:

1. Always handle every gun as though it were loaded.

When I take the cartridges out of my gun, it's unloaded. I may now treat it as though it is unloaded and clean, demonstrate, or dry fire it. If you do any of those things with your gun, you dont have a rule; you have a suggestion.

A rule must be inviolate or it isn't a rule. What you have there is the dumbed down version of Rule One that actually encourages an ND. Anyone you're mentoring will hear you recite that "rule" only to see you completey disregard it a moment later.

I teach the real Rule One: "Treat all guns as though they are loaded until you verify it is not. If it leaves your hand for even a moment, re-verify its status." That rule is easily followed without compromise and would have prevented the incident in the OP. The other three rules still apply!

It's not semantics, it's a gun for crying out loud. The results of an ND can be catastrophic. If you feel it's necessary to dumb down the rule knowing full well you'll ignore it, firearms may not be a good hobby for you.

If you check the chamber on a pistol and hand it to my son (even back when he was 12 years old) he would either check it for himself or ask you to leave the action open.

 

[Rastoff]

No, I don't agree. Actually, Cooper said it like this, "All guns are always loaded." I will always handle guns as though they are loaded. This means I still follow the other three rules as I handle them even if I just removed the ammunition.

If you follow the dry practice rules listed above, you'll notice that they include following all four of the rules at all times. This is why you designate a place and a target that will not harm anyone should a ND happen (which won't happen if you follow the rules).

I agree that rules aren't rules if you don't follow them during a demonstration. If you sit through one of my classes, you'll see all the rules followed at all times.