Never loaded lead before...a couple questions...

[JakeB]

Hey Gang,

Thank you all for the help so far! I really appreciate it!

Forgive me, please! I'm a rifle loader primarily and have always loaded jacketed bullets for my Glock...so this lead thing is new to me.

I'm primarily interested in two styles...

#1 - 158gr Round Nose for IDPA/Club Shooting. I'm looking at the Tennessee Valley Bullets offering and also the Leadheads offering.

This will be loaded for .38 Special/.38 Special +P velocities using Titegroup and HP-38.

#2 - 168gr/173gr Keith flat base for my all around shooting load. This will be loaded mostly for .357 Magnum however I may noodle about with it in a .38 Special recipe if I feel so inclined. Looking at these from a few places different vendors. The .357 Magnum loads will be loaded mainly with H110 and Magnum Primers.

Do I use jacketed bullet load data if none is available for my bullet weight/style?

In regards to option #2 will my 4" 686 be able to digest the Keith bullets crimped at the crimp groove in a .357 loading?

Why do these Keith bullets vary in weight so much? I see them offered in 168gr, 170gr, and 173gr...are they all pretty much the same?

I read this article that basically said the Dry Creek version of the 170gr could be loaded using 158gr load data...is this the case with the bullets above?

Thank You in advance and I really appreciate the help. I'm learning a lot so far and really like the 'doors' that this Smith & Wesson revolver has opened up for me...loads of interesting stuff to do, try, and learn!!!

Jake

 

[bogman]

You should have no problems using the same loads for jacketed or cast, as long as they are for the same bullet weight. the lead bullets will be a little faster, because of less friction in the bbl. Tenn. Valley makes some good Keith bullets. I have shot them out of mt #586, both with Unique & 2400 powder. H110 & 2400 are very close in burning rates. The variation in bullets weight, has to do with the lead & tin mixture. more of one & less of the other, either way will affect the weight. not a big deal. Lyman has a lot of cast bullet loads. I have bought bullets from both TVB, & Leadheads. never had a problem with TVB, but had about 50 Keith .44cal bullets from Leadheads that had minor to major flaws. this was out of a 500 count box.

 

[cjw3]

The crimping groove should not be a problem with the 173 grain bullet in your 686.

Keep an eye out for leading with the high velocity .357 loads and lead bullets; having a bore brush with Chore Boy wrapped around it is sometimes a useful thing to have along..

 

[OKFC05]

Do I use jacketed bullet load data if none is available for my bullet weight/style?

Watch out for soft lead and be especially wary with 296/H110, which is very unforgiving when "guesstimating" loads. A Lyman manual is a good place to start.

 

[PDL]

You should have no problems using the same loads for jacketed or cast, as long as they are for the same bullet weight. the lead bullets will be a little faster, because of less friction in the bbl. Tenn. Valley makes some good Keith bullets. I have shot them out of mt #586, both with Unique & 2400 powder. H110 & 2400 are very close in burning rates. The variation in bullets weight, has to do with the lead & tin mixture. more of one & less of the other, either way will affect the weight. not a big deal. Lyman has a lot of cast bullet loads. I have bought bullets from both TVB, & Leadheads. never had a problem with TVB, but had about 50 Keith .44cal bullets from Leadheads that had minor to major flaws. this was out of a 500 count box.

I'm not all that experienced with reloading, but I was kind of questioning this response.
I'm not familiar with the powders that the OP was intending to use, so I guess it could easily be an accurate statement. But I was looking at some reloading data where there was a considerable difference between the data for lead as opposed to jacketed for some powders. Some of the starting loads listed for jacketed were higher than the max loads listed for lead. Granted I was looking at an old manual though. So maybe the data is closer in newer manuals.

 

[bogman]

Speer or Hornady, make their own lead bullets, but they swage bullets from pure or very soft lead, so their load data should show lower charges. Swaged bullets should not be fired at the high velocities that cast bullets can be, or they will lead terribly. hard cast bullets, can be driven at much higher velocities. that makes cast bullets great hunting bullets. You should always taylor your load to the type of bullet, that you are using & also to what purpose that you are going to use it for. Lyman makes a great cast bullet loading manual, with some great loads using many different powders, with many different velocities(target loads, & hunting loads)

 

[acl864]

Load data for jacketed and cast bullets is not usually considered interchangeable. It "may' be but I wouldn't bank on it. My load data and manuals are out in the shop but I'll look up some loads tommorow A.M. and give you some specific examples of loads for cast vs. jacketed bullets using the bullet weights and powders you have listed. I like Tennessee Valley Bullets alot. I shot them nearly exclusively before I started casting.

 

[PDL]

Speer or Hornady, make their own lead bullets, but they swage bullets from pure or very soft lead, so their load data should show lower charges. Swaged bullets should not be fired at the high velocities that cast bullets can be, or they will lead terribly. hard cast bullets, can be driven at much higher velocities. that makes cast bullets great hunting bullets. You should always taylor your load to the type of bullet, that you are using & also to what purpose that you are going to use it for. Lyman makes a great cast bullet loading manual, with some great loads using many different powders, with many different velocities(target loads, & hunting loads)

Thanks for the clarification. It was a speer manual I was looking at.
Best part about this site, you learn something every day.

 

[Dragon88]

Do not use jacketed bullet data for cast bullets. There is plenty of data out there for cast bullets. Be especially careful with H110, it has a very narrow window for a safe charge. If you treat it like a normal powder and wander outside the safe window, then throw a cast bullet on top of a jacketed bullet load to boot, you are asking for trouble. Not to mention you will need a hard, premium cast bullet with a gas check if you want to do that full power load and avoid excessive leading.

Reloading The .38 Special Page
Reloading .357 Magnum Page

If you want to get serious about loading 38/357 with cast bullets you will need some different powders as well. Bullseye and Unique are good places to start.

Variations in weight are due to different alloys used for casting the bullets. These are associated with bullet hardness.

Recommend reading a Lyman manual or something specifically on cast bullets before you start, or do a lot of googling and reading on the internet.

 

[Pisgah]

It is perfectly safe to use jacketed bullet load data for lead bullets of the same weight. What you should never do is use lead-bullet data, particularly target-level charges, for jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are MUCH more "slippery" than jacketed, and a charge perfectly fine with a lead bullet may leave a jacketed bullet stuck in the bore.

 

[acl864]

It is perfectly safe to use jacketed bullet load data for lead bullets of the same weight. What you should never do is use lead-bullet data, particularly target-level charges, for jacketed bullets. Lead bullets are MUCH more "slippery" than jacketed, and a charge perfectly fine with a lead bullet may leave a jacketed bullet stuck in the bore.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. You have the right to your opinion and you may be 100% correct. But I've never seen any reputable reloading manual make that statement and back it up with pressure data showing that it's safe to substitute lead bullets for jacketed bullets of the same weight.

Some 38 Special load data for the OP:
Hodgdon online has a load listed for a 158 gr. LSWC bullet for HP-38 started at 3.1 gr and max of 3.7 gr. and Titegroup start at 3.2 gr. max at 3.8 gr. Same data source shows loads for a 158 gr Hornady XTP HP-38 start at 3.8 gr. max at 4.3 gr. and Titegroup start 3.5 gr max at 3.9 gr.

For 357 Mag my current Lyman manual shows a 170 gr. Lead SWC bullet with H-110 and Magnum SP primers at 14.4gr start load to 15.0 gr. max. H-110 is NOT a good powder for reduced loads. If yoou go below the suggested start loads there is a potential for squib loads.

FWIW- Take all load data and suggestions posted on anonymous online forums INCLUDING MINE as opinion- not fact. Filter it with common sense and do your own research. Reloading manuals and manufacturers online sites are the ultimate authority for what is considered safe. You have the right and ability to disagree with the load data they post- but you do so at your own risk. Always work up to max loads.

 

[11e40]

gentlemen, i have been reloading for over thirty years. know just enough to get in trouble. lead bullet & jacketed data is not the same. i've had good results in .38/.357 lswc w/unique & trailboss.

 

[bogman]

Best advice, is to invest in one or more reloading manuals. !!!

 

[JakeB]

First off...

THANK YOU!

So everyone is clear I am using several loading manuals and a few
online loading sources to check on starting and max loads.

Hodgdon Online
Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition
Speed Reloading Manual #11 (Inherited this one and glad I did!)
Hornady Loading Manual 7th Edition
Lyman Load Manual 49th Edition

I also keep in mind that swaged lead is MUCH softer than cast lead.
I'm mostly concerned with cast lead loads. The only swaged lead loads
I am going to load at the moment are Speer 148gr HBWC and some HP-38.

What I'm finding though is it's tough to determine load data for cast lead vs. swaged lead.

What is the barrier for swaged lead vs cast lead? How does one determine load data for swaged lead vs cast lead?

 

[bogman]

Check out a site called Cast Boolits - Dedicated To The World Of Cast Bullets! its all about cast bullets & loads. A lot of very informative people there.

 

[oldRoger]

To clarify: Max loads for the jacketed bullet or a lead bullet with a gas check should not be used for a lead bullet.

Certainly there is a great deal of overlap in the loadings but lead bullet max loads will almost always be lower than similar weight jacketed bullets.

So while I agree with the general statement that bullets with similar weight and design can be fired with similar charge weights, the qualifiers are many. Since you will have to look for a lead bullet load recipe to make sure that you are not at or near the max, why not just use the recipe to begin with?

Everything we use to alloy lead for casting is has a lower density than lead, so dependent upon what's in the mix we will get a lighter bullet from the same mold than we would with pure lead. The alloys all shrink slightly differently so they will tend to be different sizes from the mold when cooling as well.

But not all Keith Style SWC bullets are exactly the same anyway, some are slightly longer, sq. based, wider drive bands, etc.

 

[acl864]

What I'm finding though is it's tough to determine load data for cast lead vs. swaged lead.

What is the barrier for swaged lead vs cast lead? How does one determine load data for swaged lead vs cast lead?

A cast 158 gr SWC and a swaged 158 gr SWC are going to be listed with very similar loads. The swaged bullet may tend to lead the barrel at the upper end of the range and the cast bullet- especially if it's hard cast- may tend to lead at the lower end of the load range. The 148 gr. HBWC you mentioned is a different story. It is always loaded at a lower velocity. You cannot substitute data from a 148 gr. DEWC or BBWC. There's a danger of the skirt around the base of the bullet separating at higher speeds. That bullet was developed specifically to expand to seal the bore at very low velocity for target shooting.