Deputy
Member
Guilty as charged. Now how about a mea culpa about posting that S&W doesn't recommend bullet weights heavier than 240 grain for 329s
That recommendation seems to depend on who you talk to at S&W.
New 329 Nightguard - NEW RANGE REPORT ADDED -- GO TO 01/11/09 POST
- Thread starter mrheythere
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That recommendation seems to depend on who you talk to at S&W.
Deputy
Member
Well this is interesting. I actually found the post about bullet weights for the Nightguard. It is on THIS forum and coachmariner actually participated in the thread.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/695107034/m/3471087933/p/1
The post was made by flopshank:
"Last of all, I recall in a past conversation a S&W customer service rep saying that S&W considered 240 grs. the largest weight bullet that was not needlessly hard on their guns and the maximum that they recommended."
As a matter of fact, conchmariner AGREED with this post:
"Wyatt Earp and flop-shank, I'm with you all on this. I haven't done near the amount of shooting and/or testing that you have, but remember I only shoot six rounds a week max of the Hornady 300 gr Magnum for personal training purposes only (I've also mentioned my concerns about the effects on the gun of shooting such a heavy weight bullet - I may email S&W about this even though a local gunsmith assured me there shouldn't be a problem).
My primary defense round is indeed a Hornady 180 gr XTP/JHP in .44 Special or Winchester Silvertip also in .44 Special for the reasons you all stated.
Thanks to both of you for the detailed info. This really is a great place to learn."
And I concur. I also saw where someone posted a link in that thread stating that the 300 grain bullet was the ideal weight for defensive purposes. Might as well carry a howitzer and be REAL sure you kill the bad guy
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/695107034/m/3471087933/p/1
The post was made by flopshank:
"Last of all, I recall in a past conversation a S&W customer service rep saying that S&W considered 240 grs. the largest weight bullet that was not needlessly hard on their guns and the maximum that they recommended."
As a matter of fact, conchmariner AGREED with this post:
"Wyatt Earp and flop-shank, I'm with you all on this. I haven't done near the amount of shooting and/or testing that you have, but remember I only shoot six rounds a week max of the Hornady 300 gr Magnum for personal training purposes only (I've also mentioned my concerns about the effects on the gun of shooting such a heavy weight bullet - I may email S&W about this even though a local gunsmith assured me there shouldn't be a problem).
My primary defense round is indeed a Hornady 180 gr XTP/JHP in .44 Special or Winchester Silvertip also in .44 Special for the reasons you all stated.
Thanks to both of you for the detailed info. This really is a great place to learn."
And I concur. I also saw where someone posted a link in that thread stating that the 300 grain bullet was the ideal weight for defensive purposes. Might as well carry a howitzer and be REAL sure you kill the bad guy
OP
mrheythere
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Originally posted by Deputy:
Well this is interesting. I actually found the post about bullet weights for the Nightguard. It is on THIS forum and coachmariner actually participated in the thread.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/695107034/m/3471087933/p/1
The post was made by flopshank:
"Last of all, I recall in a past conversation a S&W customer service rep saying that S&W considered 240 grs. the largest weight bullet that was not needlessly hard on their guns and the maximum that they recommended."
As a matter of fact, conchmariner AGREED with this post:
"Wyatt Earp and flop-shank, I'm with you all on this. I haven't done near the amount of shooting and/or testing that you have, but remember I only shoot six rounds a week max of the Hornady 300 gr Magnum for personal training purposes only (I've also mentioned my concerns about the effects on the gun of shooting such a heavy weight bullet - I may email S&W about this even though a local gunsmith assured me there shouldn't be a problem).
My primary defense round is indeed a Hornady 180 gr XTP/JHP in .44 Special or Winchester Silvertip also in .44 Special for the reasons you all stated.
Thanks to both of you for the detailed info. This really is a great place to learn."
And I concur. I also saw where someone posted a link in that thread stating that the 300 grain bullet was the ideal weight for defensive purposes. Might as well carry a howitzer and be REAL sure you kill the bad guy
The plot thickens. So is a small amount of 300 grainers fine for practicing for bear defense when one has mislaid his rifle, shotgun, pepper spray, or M181 claymore?
conchmariner
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Originally posted by Deputy:
Well this is interesting. I actually found the post about bullet weights for the Nightguard. It is on THIS forum and coachmariner actually participated in the thread.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/695107034/m/3471087933/p/1
The post was made by flopshank:
"Last of all, I recall in a past conversation a S&W customer service rep saying that S&W considered 240 grs. the largest weight bullet that was not needlessly hard on their guns and the maximum that they recommended."
As a matter of fact, conchmariner AGREED with this post:
"Wyatt Earp and flop-shank, I'm with you all on this. I haven't done near the amount of shooting and/or testing that you have, but remember I only shoot six rounds a week max of the Hornady 300 gr Magnum for personal training purposes only (I've also mentioned my concerns about the effects on the gun of shooting such a heavy weight bullet - I may email S&W about this even though a local gunsmith assured me there shouldn't be a problem).
My primary defense round is indeed a Hornady 180 gr XTP/JHP in .44 Special or Winchester Silvertip also in .44 Special for the reasons you all stated.
Thanks to both of you for the detailed info. This really is a great place to learn."
And I concur. I also saw where someone posted a link in that thread stating that the 300 grain bullet was the ideal weight for defensive purposes. Might as well carry a howitzer and be REAL sure you kill the bad guy
Absolutely right, I stated as much earlier in this thread when I said I had concerns about firing 300 grain mag loads in my 329NG.
But there is nothing in the S&W owners manual nor on the S&W website that recommends against this. I'm not disputing that some S&W reps may advise against this - I haven't talked to that many - but the one I asked the question of didn't. Now if this really were a problem don't you think S&W lawyers would be on them to make more explicit statements?
Again I'm not trying to pick a fight or split hairs because you and I agree. Besides 300 grain loads in that gun aren't much fun after a few rounds anyway (as I also said earlier in this thread).
Peace brother.
conchmariner
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One more thing. I was the one that posted the link in the other thread. The guy concluded that the Hornady 300 grain JHP performed the best as a self defense load for .44 caliber in his tests. He also specified longer barrels than the 2.75 inch 329NG barrels, in fact I think his exact words were something like you're on your own with barrels less than 3 inches.
Anyway others with more experience than me disagreed with his analysis and conclusions.
Anyway others with more experience than me disagreed with his analysis and conclusions.
Deputy
Member
Conch: It never said in any of the K-frame S&W magnum's manuals that .357 magnums were not a good idea to shoot. But after a while S&W users saw the accelerated wear that resulted from firing them out of their guns. And those were STEEL frames. Just because it doesn't SAY they will wear out quicker, doesn't mean it won't happen. Do I think S&W shysters would let this situation ride? The answer is yes. Why would you be surprised that they did??? The ILS is a total screwup that can endanger people if it accidently engages and S&W is still selling them. Many Walther PPK owners are having problems with that gun and S&W refuses to acknowledge them (S&W makes the pocket Walthers in the USA). It's not uncommon for companies to let unsafe situations exist. Look at Ford with the Pinto.
I have no beef with the 300+ grain bullets. They are great for silhouette shooting or for HUNTING things like big bears. But you need the proper tool for the job. If you are seriously thinking of hunting bears or other large animals, then an alloy frame, short barrel, lightweight Nightguard is not the gun for the job. A much better choice would be the steel frame Ruger Redhawk. It can take firing the heaviest magnum loads all day without a hiccup. If you absolutely positively must carry the Nightguard, then you still don't need a 300 grain bullet to stop bears. Anything 210 to 260 grain would be more than adequate. Many guides carry .41 magnums with 210 grain loads and it performs quite well. Just remember DO NOT USE A HOLLOWPOINT!!!! You need maximum penetration to get through all the muscle and tissue of a bear, and an HP bullet will expand and stop far too quickly. Use a soft point or one of the cast bullets like Buffalo Bore sells.
Think about this....S&W sells a snubbie handgun designed for packing out in the woods and emergency encounters. It's the stainless steel 629ES. Wouldn't they use a 329 Nightguard if that were the ideal backpacking gun?
A 300 grain cartridge for shooting humans is like using a 10 pound sledgehammer to kill an ant. Plus you are endangering bystanders when that slug goes flying through the bad guy and seeks out innocent targets.
I have no beef with the 300+ grain bullets. They are great for silhouette shooting or for HUNTING things like big bears. But you need the proper tool for the job. If you are seriously thinking of hunting bears or other large animals, then an alloy frame, short barrel, lightweight Nightguard is not the gun for the job. A much better choice would be the steel frame Ruger Redhawk. It can take firing the heaviest magnum loads all day without a hiccup. If you absolutely positively must carry the Nightguard, then you still don't need a 300 grain bullet to stop bears. Anything 210 to 260 grain would be more than adequate. Many guides carry .41 magnums with 210 grain loads and it performs quite well. Just remember DO NOT USE A HOLLOWPOINT!!!! You need maximum penetration to get through all the muscle and tissue of a bear, and an HP bullet will expand and stop far too quickly. Use a soft point or one of the cast bullets like Buffalo Bore sells.
Think about this....S&W sells a snubbie handgun designed for packing out in the woods and emergency encounters. It's the stainless steel 629ES. Wouldn't they use a 329 Nightguard if that were the ideal backpacking gun?
A 300 grain cartridge for shooting humans is like using a 10 pound sledgehammer to kill an ant. Plus you are endangering bystanders when that slug goes flying through the bad guy and seeks out innocent targets.
Deputy
Member
Just to revive this thread...today I am (finally) taking out my 329 Nightguard and a SIG P226 in .40S&W. I will be firing a box of .44 Special round nose standard pressure cartridges and six Winchester Silvertip .44 magnum cartridges. Supposedly the Silvertips are one of the lesser-recoiling magnum loads. We shall see. I will report back later today.
The SIG will use 165 grain FMJ.
Dep
The SIG will use 165 grain FMJ.
Dep
Deputy
Member
Just got back from the range. I have good news and bad news. The good news....the SIG226 in .40S&W performed flawlessly. Recoil was a lot milder than what I anticipated. I was easily able to keep the round in the bullseye at 25 feet. Only complaint was initially the magazine was very tough to load. I had anticipated that from my Walther P99 and I had an UpLula mag loader to handle that situation.
So I was quite happy with my SIG
Now the bad news...I took out my 329 Nightguard
and loaded it with Remington .44 Special round nose lead. The first shot and I realized this gun was a handful even with the light .44 Special loads. I reloaded and in the next batch of 6 rounds I suffered my first malfunction. It appeared to be a light primer strike. I set the unfired cartridge aside and reloaded. 5th round and it happened again. Light primer strike. Uh-oh. I thought maybe I had a bad batch of ammo. This was NOT reloads, but fresh brand new ammo.
So I thought I would try out some magnum loads.
I loaded up 6 Winchester Silvertips in .44 magnum. OUCH! The recoil was brutal!!! 3 rounds and I had to give my hand a rest. After about 5 minutes I went to fire the last three rounds. 2 more light primer strikes. And this with a completely different brand and type of ammo.
So tomorrow I am going to give S&W a call and see about returning this thing for repairs. I'm not even gonna clean it. I want it EXACTLY like it was when the malfunctions happened.
I also broke the cardinal rule of not testing a handgun before picking it as your go-to weapon in case of an emergency. I will NOT make that mistake again.
Then agaion....what do you expect for a gun that costs ONLY $1100.
Dep
So I was quite happy with my SIG
Now the bad news...I took out my 329 Nightguard
and loaded it with Remington .44 Special round nose lead. The first shot and I realized this gun was a handful even with the light .44 Special loads. I reloaded and in the next batch of 6 rounds I suffered my first malfunction. It appeared to be a light primer strike. I set the unfired cartridge aside and reloaded. 5th round and it happened again. Light primer strike. Uh-oh. I thought maybe I had a bad batch of ammo. This was NOT reloads, but fresh brand new ammo.
So I thought I would try out some magnum loads.
I loaded up 6 Winchester Silvertips in .44 magnum. OUCH! The recoil was brutal!!! 3 rounds and I had to give my hand a rest. After about 5 minutes I went to fire the last three rounds. 2 more light primer strikes. And this with a completely different brand and type of ammo.
So tomorrow I am going to give S&W a call and see about returning this thing for repairs. I'm not even gonna clean it. I want it EXACTLY like it was when the malfunctions happened.
I also broke the cardinal rule of not testing a handgun before picking it as your go-to weapon in case of an emergency. I will NOT make that mistake again.
Then agaion....what do you expect for a gun that costs ONLY $1100.
Dep
Due to the heavy recoil in my 296 I have recently purchased some 200gr, .44 special, L-rn-fp ammo, with black powder "777" FFg cowboy loads. I have not yet been to the range but I was assured that with the modern powders being used the cowboy load should make the recoil more tolerable. This is my first try with this kind of ammo.
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mrheythere
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You accurately describe the recoil. I compared it to hammers hitting the hand in an earlier post.
I have not had the light strike problems you are having. I am sorry you need to send it back, but it is not right. I have shot all sorts of ammo through mine without s problem.
I really think this gun makes an awesome bear defense gun. Carried a lot and shot little. It is simply not comfortable to shoot as a common range gun.
While I don't want to shoot it often, it really like the gun. So light to carry while fishing with bears.
