Golddog
Member
Is the face of the cylinder binding on the forcing cone? I had that problem with a number of Smiths.
New 686+ 4", jamming once about every 100 rounds
- Thread starter JohnRyan
- Start date
Made it to the range tonight. Shot #22 and the damn thing bound up again. This time I let it cool a little bit, the jam completely cleared, and the cylinder opened without a problem. This only happens once the gun starts to get warm, I could only assume something is expanding.
I took a video which I will try to post. Needless to say I'm sending it back ASAP.
Really disappointed.
I'm thinking it's something like this, but I don't know.
It took a day or two less than three weeks from sending to return.
I took a video which I will try to post. Needless to say I'm sending it back ASAP.
Really disappointed.
I'm thinking it's something like this, but I don't know.
It took a day or two less than three weeks from sending to return.
Mike_Fontenot
Member
Sounds like S&W didn't do a very good job of test firing it after their repairs. How many rounds did you fire, and how fast?
With respect to the cylinder possibly binding on the forcing cone area, you can:
- Double check it is unloaded
- Although gap is only very roughly 0.006" it is very easy to see if you hold the gun up to a strong light
- Dry fire through all the chambers, and verify that the gap is square and the same for all.
- This will not tell you if the gun is in spec, but you will be able to see any problem big enough to lock it up here.
With respect to the areas you circled in an earlier post, around the edges of the ejector, they should be flush with the surrounding cylinder (not stand proud in the direction of the bore axis). If not perfectly flush, that is a problem.
With respect to cleaning a bit at the range, you can quickly toothbrush the ratchet area at the center of the extractor (in addition to under the extractor, facing the cylinder), which is what engages the hand poking out of the frame. A small amount a debris here can lock up the gun.
- Double check it is unloaded
- Although gap is only very roughly 0.006" it is very easy to see if you hold the gun up to a strong light
- Dry fire through all the chambers, and verify that the gap is square and the same for all.
- This will not tell you if the gun is in spec, but you will be able to see any problem big enough to lock it up here.
With respect to the areas you circled in an earlier post, around the edges of the ejector, they should be flush with the surrounding cylinder (not stand proud in the direction of the bore axis). If not perfectly flush, that is a problem.
With respect to cleaning a bit at the range, you can quickly toothbrush the ratchet area at the center of the extractor (in addition to under the extractor, facing the cylinder), which is what engages the hand poking out of the frame. A small amount a debris here can lock up the gun.
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foytfoyt,
Thank you for the tips. I just checked the cone through an entire revolution of the cylinders in the sunlight and it's consistent on each. I'll be sure to check again when it jams with a flashlight.
Those circled areas on the extraction star are no longer an issue. The extractor was replaced by S&W. While I have experienced the jam since getting the firearm back, those wear spots have (thankfully) not returned. We're making progress
I've been keeping a brush in my bag for that exact purpose! So far it hasn't helped.
I gave the firearm a really solid cleaning today, got most of the lead off around the cone, all around the cylinder. Going to give it another shot at the range soon.
Should the magazine cartridges be falling out of the cylinder under their own weight when on an angle, without engaging the extractor? Just a slight angle and the (snap caps) slide right out.
Thank you for the tips. I just checked the cone through an entire revolution of the cylinders in the sunlight and it's consistent on each. I'll be sure to check again when it jams with a flashlight.
Those circled areas on the extraction star are no longer an issue. The extractor was replaced by S&W. While I have experienced the jam since getting the firearm back, those wear spots have (thankfully) not returned. We're making progress
I've been keeping a brush in my bag for that exact purpose! So far it hasn't helped.
I gave the firearm a really solid cleaning today, got most of the lead off around the cone, all around the cylinder. Going to give it another shot at the range soon.
Should the magazine cartridges be falling out of the cylinder under their own weight when on an angle, without engaging the extractor? Just a slight angle and the (snap caps) slide right out.
I had a very similar experience with my new 686+. From day one the the cylinder release latch felt very stiff and at times I had to push it forward several times before the cylinder would open. One day it didn't open at all and no matter what I did I could not get it to open, it was totally jammed shut. The cylinder still rotated when I cocked it and pulled the trigger I just could not get it to open.
I had to send it back to S&W and I got it back within 10 days and everything has functioned perfectly since then. They had no explanation but a knowledgeable gun told me that probably my ejection rod was loose.
RV4driver
US Veteran
Snap caps won't expand like an actual round would. It's not unusual for fired rounds to need the extractor to push them out. At least with my 686+
Which has been flawless, sorry about your issues!
Which has been flawless, sorry about your issues!
MJFlores
Member
Rounds dropping from the cylinder will depend on pressure when firing, low pressure and they'll drop out, higher pressure causes the brass to expand and will be tighter to extract. I believe your issue is the forcing cone to cylinder gap. You'll need a feeler gauge to measure it. Heat and sticky cylinder issues are usually related to under spec cylinder gap. 5 to 9 thousandths is what it's supposed to measure cold, I believe.
F75gunslinger
Member
The other thing that you may wish to do, is somehow mark the cylinder that binds. Then continue shooting, and if it happens again, see if it is on the same cylinder. Keep the front of the cylinder clean. If the gap is very tight residue can build up and cause the kind of issue you describe. It IS the cylinder binding, and not something getting into the action right ?
That is the question. I believe the OP is just double checking the easy stuff. Per above, the gun has already been back to S&W and had the hand and extractor replaced.
To the OP: I believe you have already taken steps to eliminate this possibility but perhaps it is worth another test: Is the problem reoccuring when you fire ONLY 38 Special? As you know, the carbon ring from 38 Special can prevent 357 from fully seating, possible resulting in a drag (again, just excluding the easy stuff). I doubt this is it, but you can spin the open cylinder and visually check for any radial runout, or a bent extractor rod.
You may have seen this, but some of the info in this excellent string may interest you (checking cylinder gap, possible causes of cylinder binding, etc), even if you are not going into the action:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/185299-500-magnum-nuts-faqs.html
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You mentioned that you're sending it back asap, but if and when it happens again, just for giggles check to see whether or not messing with the internal lock frees it up... could be a possibility that it is partially engaging from recoil, which is not unheard of.
The pic you posted of your ejector back in post #12 clearly shows the lower ratchets on the ejector above the chambers with the strange marks look to be trashed, no surprise that the listed repair included the replacement of the hand and ejector.
The pic you posted of your ejector back in post #12 clearly shows the lower ratchets on the ejector above the chambers with the strange marks look to be trashed, no surprise that the listed repair included the replacement of the hand and ejector.
That is a great idea to mark the cylinder when it happens. I have no idea if it's something with the action, very well could be.
Since getting the firearm back from S&W, I've only experienced a full lock up of the cylinder once with .357, which I have posted in the amazon video link. This happened on the 22nd shot of my first trip to the range after getting it back from S&W.
Since then I've put about 200 .38 sp rounds through it. While i haven't had a lock up like I showed in the video with the .357, there were a few rough double action cylinder rotations and 3 times the cylinder would not open after firing the last shot. A minute later it opened no problem.
Since my last trip I've given the firearm a very thorough cleaning and have removed a lot of the lead. No crud in the cylinders. Plan on getting in another range trip before sending it back again just to make sure.
Thanks for the link to those FAQs
Since getting the firearm back from S&W, I've only experienced a full lock up of the cylinder once with .357, which I have posted in the amazon video link. This happened on the 22nd shot of my first trip to the range after getting it back from S&W.
Since then I've put about 200 .38 sp rounds through it. While i haven't had a lock up like I showed in the video with the .357, there were a few rough double action cylinder rotations and 3 times the cylinder would not open after firing the last shot. A minute later it opened no problem.
Since my last trip I've given the firearm a very thorough cleaning and have removed a lot of the lead. No crud in the cylinders. Plan on getting in another range trip before sending it back again just to make sure.
Thanks for the link to those FAQs
What absolutely kills me about this is that is a photo that I took on the day I purchased the firearm. I shot one box of .357 that day followed by half a box of .38. Less than 100 rounds total and not one problem. Smooth as could be.
Took the firearm home, cleaned it, snapped several pics including that one. Noticed the actual marks much later on, and was really surprised to see them show up in that photo that I took on the day of purchase.
What I don't get is how they got there in the first place since I didn't have any problems or anything funny with the operation of the firearm that day. On top of that, the wear marks, when I happened to notice them weeks later, looked about the same as they did in that photo. In other words, they were not any worse.
The wear marks on the extractor may have been unrelated to the jamming/locking/binding issue I'm experiencing.
New extraction star does not have any wear on it after ~222 rounds.
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Back from the range. I was able to get it to jam twice shooting 357 again. Both jams occurred around the 20-something shot, after firing in succession. Each time the firearm jammed I let it cool before going at it again.
I observed the forcing cone during both incidents. I don't think this is the problem. The gap was there, clearly visible.
I did however notice something new this time, and it may be related to my question the previous post about how the hell those wear marks got there on the extractor.
Check out the dings on these cartridges. It was observable on every spent cartridge, in the same general spot, and it was particularly bad on the cartridge which was aligned to the forcing cone when the jam occurred.
I'm thinking something is catching on the edge of the cartridge, and when the gun starts to get hot, it expands big enough to outright jam the action. Does this make sense?
There is nothing obviously sharp that I can notice anywhere near the firing pin, but I'm thinking something around this area needs some polishing or filing.
I observed the forcing cone during both incidents. I don't think this is the problem. The gap was there, clearly visible.
I did however notice something new this time, and it may be related to my question the previous post about how the hell those wear marks got there on the extractor.
Check out the dings on these cartridges. It was observable on every spent cartridge, in the same general spot, and it was particularly bad on the cartridge which was aligned to the forcing cone when the jam occurred.
I'm thinking something is catching on the edge of the cartridge, and when the gun starts to get hot, it expands big enough to outright jam the action. Does this make sense?
There is nothing obviously sharp that I can notice anywhere near the firing pin, but I'm thinking something around this area needs some polishing or filing.
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I assume it is the hand that is hitting the brass, which it should not. It should only engage the ratchet on the extractor, to turn the cylinder. That would certainly lock up the action. The marks the hand is leaving on the ratchet also look suspicious.
When you pull the trigger, the upper tip of the hand moves up and forward to poke out of the slot in vertical face of the frame. You can watch this process by (gun checked to be clear) opening the cylinder, holding back on the cylinder release to keep the (internal) bolt rearward, and pulling the trigger. It looks to me you the hand in your gun is moving too far forward relative to the cylinder/ratchet/brass.
Someone more experienced will have to speak to what controls this positioning, but this may be a back to S&W issue. I speculate that by replacing the hand and extractor previously, S&W fixed the symptoms, not the root cause.
That would be a great picture to send back with the revolver, along with the most dented brass.
When you pull the trigger, the upper tip of the hand moves up and forward to poke out of the slot in vertical face of the frame. You can watch this process by (gun checked to be clear) opening the cylinder, holding back on the cylinder release to keep the (internal) bolt rearward, and pulling the trigger. It looks to me you the hand in your gun is moving too far forward relative to the cylinder/ratchet/brass.
Someone more experienced will have to speak to what controls this positioning, but this may be a back to S&W issue. I speculate that by replacing the hand and extractor previously, S&W fixed the symptoms, not the root cause.
That would be a great picture to send back with the revolver, along with the most dented brass.
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Just called in to check up on things. The customer service rep said they are going to replace the extractor and the hand. This is exactly what they did last time and it did not fix the problem. I mentioned that, but I'm going to call again tomorrow and reiterate. I really do not want to have to send this back for a third time.
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