New 686+ wont engage cylinder stop?

[DirtyHairy]

Hey All,

Maybe this thread is a little ironic considering my last one was on questions regarding the timing on modern S&W revolvers.

Anyway, I just acquired the new 686+ that I had been hunting for and its great, I love it, so smooth, very accurate...

I noticed however that on one or two of the chambers that if I slowly cock the hammer or pull the trigger, or do the thumb drag test, the cylinder stop will not engage the cylinder. I did check another 686+ that's a rental gun at the local range, and it seems to exhibit this on nearly every chamber.

I did not have the courage to see what happened if I let the hammer drop while the cylinder stop was not engaged, but how big of a concern is this? Wondering if this is "normal" or something I should have corrected? Does your 686/686+ have the same thing occur?

If I inspect the timing, you can see a slight crescent moon shape of the cylinder through the barrel when this occurs. The hand still does hold the cylinder somewhat in place, but not completely. I really like this thing, and would hate to have it get damaged because of something like this.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Pisgah]

Unless you normally shoot by slowly pulling the trigger and dragging on the cylinder with your thumb, I don't think you have much to worry about.

But, what do I know?...

 

[robertrwalsh]

I am guessing you mean the cylinder is not advancing enough to get to the cylinder stop, as opposed to going past it. It SHOULD engage the cylinder stop properly on both single action and double action prior to the hammer dropping, or at worst just as the hammer drops. For practical purposes it does not mean much, GENERALLY. The problem comes if it becomes bad enough that it is actually going BANG when not lined up properly. That will give you shaving and poor accuracy and will beat up the gun a bit if it is so bad the bullet is hitting the forcing cone significantly off center. It is completely possible this is fixable by installed a slightly oversized (over wide) hand in the gun. They can be purchased on the open market from parts dealers. This may need to be fitted to the slot in the frame. FOR 'NORMAL' operation this isn't an issue, but if it bugs you it bugs you and it is fairly easily fixable, usually. If the ratchet is beat up, that is harder to deal with.

 

[stansdds]

Since it happens on only one chamber, I'd say that the problem may not be the hand, but may be the ratchet. If this is a brand new revolver, contact S&W. If it is a used revolver, you can still contact S&W regarding this issue. Yes, a wider hand will fix this one chamber, but a wider hand may result in difficulty in cycling all the other chambers.

 

[DirtyHairy]

Since it happens on only one chamber, I'd say that the problem may not be the hand, but may be the ratchet. If this is a brand new revolver, contact S&W. If it is a used revolver, you can still contact S&W regarding this issue. Yes, a wider hand will fix this one chamber, but a wider hand may result in difficulty in cycling all the other chambers.

It is brand new, so that is my thought. I just hate to have to send in new products because their service is pretty great, but I probably won't see it again until next year.

 

[DirtyHairy]

Unless you normally shoot by slowly pulling the trigger and dragging on the cylinder with your thumb, I don't think you have much to worry about.

But, what do I know?...

If I pull the hammer back very slowly, when I get to this particular chamber maybe every other time I can get the hammer cocked without the cylinder stop engaging. I was planning to use this for hunting so I'm slightly concerned that this is a possibility, because that's a situation where I may be cocking the hammer in that manner.

 

[DirtyHairy]

I am guessing you mean the cylinder is not advancing enough to get to the cylinder stop, as opposed to going past it. It SHOULD engage the cylinder stop properly on both single action and double action prior to the hammer dropping, or at worst just as the hammer drops. For practical purposes it does not mean much, GENERALLY. The problem comes if it becomes bad enough that it is actually going BANG when not lined up properly. That will give you shaving and poor accuracy and will beat up the gun a bit if it is so bad the bullet is hitting the forcing cone significantly off center. It is completely possible this is fixable by installed a slightly oversized (over wide) hand in the gun. They can be purchased on the open market from parts dealers. This may need to be fitted to the slot in the frame. FOR 'NORMAL' operation this isn't an issue, but if it bugs you it bugs you and it is fairly easily fixable, usually. If the ratchet is beat up, that is harder to deal with.

Yes you are correct, the cylinder does not advance enough to where the cylinder stop engages.

 

[Nightowl]

While it may carry up adequately during normal operation, I understand your concern. I like mine to carry up early in double action, so I know where I can refine my sight picture during the stroke. I'm pretty sure that is a carry over from the first .357 Magnum I had. Anyway, there are two options for this fix. One is to peen the offending ratchets (I do not like this method, because I am not good at it) or to fit a wider hand. as said before this might cause the remaining ratchets to be too tight and need to be filed to fit. A difficult task at best.
You can either send it back to the factory or find a local gunsmith to fit a wider hand. I have never seen a 7 or 8 shot hand for sale, so it may have be made from standard hands, which would require some delicate work.

 

[RetCapt]

I want my guns to function perfectly. Anything less is unacceptable to me.

Were it me then, I would return it to the factory. Even if turn around time is lengthy, at least you can be fairly certain it will come back to you functioning as it should.

 

[scooter123]

These are Combat Revolvers, which means that they are intended to be shot in a Combat style. That is a smooth, steady, and somewhat rapid pull of the trigger in Double Action. If you want a sort of extreme example of this just watch a video of Jerry Miculek Speed Shooting a playing card with a .125 second split time. Take note, that is 8 rounds in 1 second or a 480 rpm firing rate.

The point of all this is that these super slow motion trigger pulls are nonsense, especially that thumb dragging bit. These revolvers were designed so they could be dropped in a muddy trench in WWI and still function well if you picked the gun up, rinsed it in a puddle, and resumed shooting. And yes, odds are very good there was mud in that puddle. BTW if you want a revolver that times out wonderfully in super slow motion find yourself an original German made Korth revolver, those are hand fitted to the hairs on a gnat's backside. Of course if you drop said Korth in a muddy puddle it's very likely that it wont function at all until it's been disassembled and cleaned to operating room standards.

Finally take note that if you read the owners manual you will find a notification that you should NOT "stage" the trigger in double action. The reason for this is because if you do that there is a slight chance that the cylinder may not carry into full lock and reduced accuracy may result. While this sound a bit bad the plain truth is that if you stage your trigger in an actual Combat setting you'll probably end up dead.

I have a S&W model 620, a distinctly rare Tensioned Barrel 7 shot L frame. I've also shot this revolver from a rest with a 2 power scope mounted to it. It is a sub MOA handgun. It also will just slightly miss carrying up fully when tested in super slow motion. That doesn't bother me at all, because I never pull a trigger that slow. If I want the best accuracy that I can achieve I cock the hammer and shoot it in Single Action. If I'm doing combat drills I drove the trigger fast enough to achieve a 3/10 split time. As for group size, Combat shooting means you don't waste time lining up sights, you focus your vision on the target and Point Shoot. At 30 feet a 7 or 8 inch group is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Mark8]

This is a common problem with current production S&W revolvers, and it's always on just one or two chambers. It's the first thing to check when looking at a new S&W revolver in a gun store. As others already told you, it is usually not a problem, as in most cases, the stop will engage before ignition even if you pull the trigger very slowly or cock the hammer very gently, due to the movement caused by the dropping hammer. But it IS a flaw and could very well cause a lot of problems and even injuries if things go south. That's why I would always fix it. Every chamber MUST pass both tests, otherwise it's not a properly functioning revolver.

 

[Mark8]

BTW if you want a revolver that times out wonderfully in super slow motion find yourself an original German made Korth revolver, those are hand fitted to the hairs on a gnat's backside. Of course if you drop said Korth in a muddy puddle it's very likely that it wont function at all until it's been disassembled and cleaned to operating room standards.

Current production Korths and Colts and Manurhins all come with all chambers locking, not just Ratzeburg Korths, and your conclusion that revolvers that don't work properly before dropping them in that infamous "puddle" will somehow magically work better than the revolvers that worked properly before is flawed logic. Not everything that is made poorly will magically work better when dirty, and S&W doesn't ship them that way because they think it's good, but because manufacturing and QC are subpar. Otherwise you'd have to send your revolvers back so that they could make ALL chambers NOT lock.

Also: NO revolver will handle dirt and sand well, it's just not a good design for that.

 

[Bullet Bob]

If it works as designed, fix it until it doesn't, I guess.

 

[stansdds]

It is brand new, so that is my thought. I just hate to have to send in new products because their service is pretty great, but I probably won't see it again until next year.

But if you or someone outside of the factory attempts to fix it, then the warranty that was part of the purchase price can become null and void. It's a new firearm, it is supposed to function exactly as designed, so send it back.

 

[usedkid]

Try putting 7 dummy rounds or fired cartridges in and then performing the same test that causes the failure to lock-up.
Chances are it will lock-up on all 7 correctly...if not send it back to the Mothership.