New bill introduced in Congress to stop ATF ruling on pistol braces

rbuzz

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There was a new bill just introduced earlier today that may give us a bit of hope that the ATF ruling on pistol braces might be stopped. I don't how much of a chance it has in passing, but it's a start. Ultimately it still may take court action to block it, but it's something and it shows our elected officials that we aren't going to take this without a fight.

It's called the P...protecting I...individual S...sovereignty T...through our laws A...act, or the Pistol Act. Basically what it does is to update and define the definition of a rifle so that it does not include a pistol with a stabilizing brace on it.

It was just introduced today, so many Congress members probably don't know about it yet, so call, write, or email your Congressmen to tell them to support this bill.

To see the bill click on the link........https://good.house.gov/sites/evo-su...files/evo-media-document/PISTOL ACT 117th.pdf

Or to see a video describing the bill........ [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v59slk8IghU[/ame]
 
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At least some legislators will hopefully see that the BATFE and the Executive Branch are userping the Legislative Branch's power.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?
 
At least some legislators will hopefully see that the BATFE and the Executive Branch are usurping the Legislative Branch's power.

Face it, quite a large number of legislators like what Bureaucracy is doing to America.

I think the Legislative Branch likes it that way because much more regulation and restriction can be accomplished and the the legislators don't have to look like they are the ones intruding on American liberty willy-nilly (and they don't have to do the work) so get to duck their responsibility to the American people.


It's been that way for decades.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

Perhaps the fact that the ATF has for the past decade said that they were legal? The ATF has given pistol stabilizing brace it's OK in several different letters to manufacturers and even said that it could be used shouldered.

As a result of that, millions of people purchased legally what the ATF said was a pistol, but that it could still be shouldered. Now because biden is pushing his anti 2nd Amendment agenda any way he can, it's suddenly been changed even though there are probably 40 million of them out there which were purchased with the ATF's blessing.

But probably one of the biggest reasons is that the ATF does not have the authority to write law, only Congress has that right. This is an unconstitutional power grab by the ATF, ordered by biden because he couldn't get it done legislatively, designed to chip away at our 2nd Amendment rights. If this is allowed to get by, then what's next?
 
Perhaps the fact that the ATF has for the past decade said that they were legal? The ATF has given pistol stabilizing brace it's OK in several different letters to manufacturers and even said that it could be used shouldered.

As a result of that, millions of people purchased legally what the ATF said was a pistol, but that it could still be shouldered. Now because biden is pushing his anti 2nd Amendment agenda any way he can, it's suddenly been changed even though there are probably 40 million of them out there which were purchased with the ATF's blessing.

But probably one of the biggest reasons is that the ATF does not have the authority to write law, only Congress has that right. This is an unconstitutional power grab by the ATF, ordered by biden because he couldn't get it done legislatively, designed to chip away at our 2nd Amendment rights. If this is allowed to get by, then what's next?

Y'all complain that the ATF doesn't have the authority to write law (and I agree), but that is exactly what they did when they said braces weren't stocks. The NFA of 1934 is quite clear on the matter. We all knew when we bought them that we were essentially getting an SBR with no paperwork. This is clearly not the same as the ATF rewriting the definition of a machine gun to include bumpstocks.

And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

You can debate the NFA and whether or not SBR's should be regulated, or even if any regulation at all is constitutional, but the law is 90 years old... don't expect the courts to all of a sudden come out against it.

- and I noticed that you didn't answer my 3 questions.
 
Rep. Matt Gaetz has also introduced H.R.374, the "Abolish the ATF Act." It probably won't go anywhere, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

1. Yes
2. No
3. Because the BATF has said in writing that it is not a stock
 
And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

This regulation greatly affects commercial made brace pistols. Since you have read and have a formed a understanding of the new regulation will you share the BATF position on commercial pistols with braces? Specifically;

How will future commercially made braced pistols be sold and brought?

Will (or how) they be allowed to be imported into the U.S.?

Can retailers have them in stock?

If so how will the sale be done?

Will the pistol have to be held by the retailer/seller until the buyer receives their Tax Stamp the same way suppressors are currently done?

Since the Tax Stamp requires a serial number of the pistol it will be impossible to shop for one after receiving the stamp. This will
make it difficult for retailers/sellers to have braced pistols in stock (if allowed).

What FFL classification will allow a dealer/retailer to sell braced pistols?
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

1. I do.

2. I do.

3. I agree the ATF could have used its authority in 2012 to define braced pistols as SBRs under the principle of Chevron Deference and a common sense interpretation based on the intent of the SBR provisions of the NFA of 1934. In short, if it looks like a stock and can be used like a stock, it's a stock, and if it's mounted on a rifled barrel firearms with a barrel less than 16", it's an SBR. Period. Full stop. No one would have challenged them on it. They could have addressed the alleged accessibility/disability by waiving the tax stamp fee for SBR registrations for people with qualifying documented disabilities.

But that's not what the ATF did.

The ATF used a narrow read of the law to review the issue of pistol braces against the regulations and determined a braced pistol was in fact not an SBR, but was in fact still a pistol, regardless of whether it was shouldered.

In 2015, the ATF tried to stick that genie back in the bottle by claiming that shouldering a braced pistol made it an SBR. In simple terms they claimed how a firearm is used defines its classification and rifles were made to be shot with two hands. By extension then, so was the 1911. Not surprisingly that effort didn't withstand even basic scrutiny and they pulled it back.

Then under the current administration they passed a proposed rule and got roughly 20,000 comments in support, 8,000 of those being form letters, against 217,000 comments in opposition to the proposed rules. And yet they persisted with the rule banning pistols braces.

The ATF has also persisted despite Supreme Court rulings gutting its ban on bump stocks, which had the same regulatory trajectory on being approved (since 2013) and then suddenly banned when ATF reversed its original interpretation.

The difference between the ATF using Chevron deference in 2012 to say pistol braces are legal, and using Chevron deference now - after 20 million of them have been sold - is that now individuals who legally bought them after ATF approved them are in a position of hanging to register them, or face criminal penalties and imprisonment.

The ATF does not have the authority to do that. Under administrative law, a cognizant agency, like ATF, in charge of a set of regulations, is granted a great deal of latitude in its interpretation as long as the statute is silent on the issue, and the interpretation made is a "reasonable construction" of the statute.

However, ATF cannot approve them, allow millions to be sold and then make a second redetermination reversing their first determination resulting in criminal penalties for people who do not comply.

When criminal penalties are involved the Rule of Lenity must be applied prior to a Chevron deference and in essence it requires an interpretation be made that is "most favorable" to the defendant. In this case, ATF canto claim there is not an interpretation that makes braced pistols legal, their interpretation did exactly that from 2012 to 2022.


——

Now…I get it. Many people are still stuck on the "if it looks like it…" idea. But even if we set aside the administrative law aspects of that ship already sailing, so what?


In 1934 folks like Clyde Barrow were sawing the barrels off on full auto weapons like the Colt Monitor (a favorite of Clyde's) to better conceal them under a trench coat for the purpose of knocking off a bank. Thus the NFA of 1934 and related registration and tax stamp fees. Which of course members of criminal gangs ignored anyway.

Fast forward to 2012 when braced pistols were approved by ATF what happened? Not much. They didn't cause any spike in crime.

The industry sold about 20 million of them (industry estimates, ATF says "only" 3 million), and ATF cited exactly two crimes where braced pistols were present. Both were mass shootings, but at the time the NPRM was published there had been over 2600 mass shootings between 2012 and 2022 when the rule went out for comment. That's 2 out of 2600 mass shooting, or just 0.07% and just 2 out of 3 million, or 0.0007% of all braced pistols sold (and that's using ATFs low estimate).

And strictly speaking, the two pistols with their short barrels, used in those mass shootings were less lethal than the longer barrel rifle and carbine versions of them would have been.

So I'm just not seeing where the benefit is in banning them. Braced pistols are still to large and too hard to conceal to be used in any significant degree by criminals, and when used will be by definition less lethal than a longer barrel counterpart shooting the same ammo at higher velocity.


More over, since SBRs and suppressors are virtually never used in crimes as well, the smarter move is to just remove those items from the registration requirements of the NFA. Make them a check box like "handgun" on form 4473 and require a purchase permit just like a handgun. It makes them items subject to local control at the discretion of the states.

It would also save the ATF about 90 FTEs currently running background checks on those items that instead could be doing things that are far more productive, like running down social media leads when mass shooters invariable broadcast their intentions in advance.
 
Y'all complain that the ATF doesn't have the authority to write law (and I agree), but that is exactly what they did when they said braces weren't stocks. The NFA of 1934 is quite clear on the matter. We all knew when we bought them that we were essentially getting an SBR with no paperwork. This is clearly not the same as the ATF rewriting the definition of a machine gun to include bumpstocks.

And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside).

You can debate the NFA and whether or not SBR's should be regulated, or even if any regulation at all is constitutional, but the law is 90 years old... don't expect the courts to all of a sudden come out against it.

- and I noticed that you didn't answer my 3 questions.

After it's 2015 attempt to say they could not be shouldered (which was the first time they said they could not be shouldered) that ATF did in fact back off and agree they could be shouldered.

None of us have any expectation that the court will overturn the NFA. Although we could argue that the intent of the NFA was never to ban or require registration firearms in common use (as in all those 14" Winchester trapper carbines that were exempt as they were in common use).

Those of us who think the NFA of 1934's provisions against SBRs and suppressors is antiquated and no longer serves any useful crime control purpose agree it's up to congress to repeal it.

Although the ATF could opt to stop enforcing it. Just as the FCC stopped enforcing the fairness doctrine in 1987, long before it was finally repealed in 2011.
 
And for the record, if you bother to read the nearly 300 page rule you'll see that the ATF doesn't have a problem with braces used as braces, and was never ok with people using them like stocks (accidental shouldering aside). /
.
Reading the plethora of information out there since the ATF started the BRACE Witch hunt I see they bring up the fact that braces were originlly approved as an assistance appliance for the handicapped.
In reading through the 300 page rule around page 101 there's mention of the fact that use can still use a brace without a tax stamp if you're disabled. I have problems with my legs and have handicapped plates on my truck. Does that mean I can still use a braced AR but have to strap it to my foot?
 
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In reading through the 300 page rule [/QUOTE said:
As a matter of note, the rule is about 10 pages long and begins on approximately pps 268. Imo, the only thing that really matters (legally enforceable or defensible) is in the rule itself. Not the about 290 pages of misdirection.

Ps. Just when does the rule get published? One might think they would want it published as soon as possible at the best political advantage moment for the administration.

Federal Register
::
Agencies - Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Bureau
 
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The first 268 pages gives the ATF plenty of political and legal outs in terms of rationale for their constantly changing position.

Look, all I'm saying is that 120 days after the rule is published, if you still have a braced pistol and haven't taken any of the steps outlined, then you are going to be in violation of the 1934 NFA. And if/when the federal government charges you with a felony as such, and your best defense hinges on the ATF's terminology flip-flops and whether or not the SBR's should even be regulated... you're in trouble. Serious trouble.

Or we could all just take the free stamp and go about our business putting real stocks on our firearms. (obviously still a problem in states that don't allow SBR's).
 
The first 268 pages gives the ATF plenty of political and legal outs in terms of rationale for their constantly changing position.

Look, all I'm saying is that 120 days after the rule is published, if you still have a braced pistol and haven't taken any of the steps outlined, then you are going to be in violation of the 1934 NFA. And if/when the federal government charges you with a felony as such, and your best defense hinges on the ATF's terminology flip-flops and whether or not the SBR's should even be regulated... you're in trouble. Serious trouble.

Or we could all just take the free stamp and go about our business putting real stocks on our firearms. (obviously still a problem in states that don't allow SBR's).

I'm going to wait and see. I'll get the required finger prints and fill out the forms but I think anyone with a braced pistols would be nuts to submit the paper work any earlier than 60 days after publication of the rule as the legal challenges will be massive:

1) There are the administrative law issues including:
- the over reach on the ATF based on abuse of a Chevron Defernece;
- the Rule of Lenity issues given that the rule change now results in criminal penalties for non compliance; and
- the ATF's flip flops on the issue and the continuing ambiguity in the proposed rule that impeaches the credibility of the ATF and raises issues going back to the Staples decision in 1994 regarding mens rea and the ATF's inability to prove intent that individuals will know they have an illegal firearm given the complex and confusing nature of the criteria in the rule.
- the ATF's extensive addition to the legislative definition of a rifle in the regulations to sweep braced pistols into that definition, opening the ATF to the very rational argument that such an extensive clarification and redefinition of a class of firearms is a power granted to congress, not an agency in the executive branch.
- the lack of any statutory authority under the NFA of 1934 for the ATF to register braced pistols that are already in use. The NFA allows registration of newly purchased restricted items and the transfer of restricted items. There is no provision to register weapons that AFT arbitrarily decided are now restricted under the NFA.

2) There are also Constitutional issues that stem from the recent cases in Heller, Heller II and Bruen that effectively protect both rifles and handguns under the second amendment, with short barrel rifles being in between those legal extremes. In light of those decisions the SBR issue itself may well be over turned.

3) Finally, the ATF must prove that braced pistols are both dangerous and unusual and the ATF has devoted literally hundreds of page trying to do that. They doth protest too much. They are in common use, even with the small 3 million ATF estimate. Consider for a minute the Model 94 Winchester was one of the most produced rifles in history and it's only about 7 million. 3 million is a big "common use" number. There's also a lack of both data and specific instances where braced pistols have been used in crimes. The ATF cited 2. 2 over an 11 year period of time with at least 3 million of these weapons in common use. The lack of a valid "unusual and dangerous" claims takes it out of the scope of the NFA of 1934.

—-

The ATF only has to lose on one of the above challenges for the rule to be thrown out.

My suspicion is the ATF is going to get slapped really hard by the Supreme Court for not just this rule, but an egregious pattern of regulatory over reach in its whole bump stock, forced reset trigger, solvent trap, and braced pistol agenda.

There's also ATFs trouble some history of doing things like selling solvent traps to entrap customers, and loading rifle ammunition with pistol primers to get semi- auto rifles to double due to inertial firing pins striking the lighter cups in these primers not intended for rifle pressures.

The thing I think you need to take to heart is that if the ATF gets away with this egregious abuse of administrative law and related statutory creep and over reach where it can usurp the authority and intent of congress and make things illegal on a whim, other government agencies can do similar things on other matters that will be a concern other citizens on non firearm issues.
 
The ATF only has to lose on one of the above challenges for the rule to be thrown out.

My suspicion is the ATF is going to get slapped really hard by the Supreme Court for not just this rule, but an egregious pattern of regulatory over reach in its whole bump stock, forced reset trigger, solvent trap, and braced pistol agenda.

I think that is being pretty optimistic. The bumpstock ban went into effect in 2017, 5+ years later, a court has finally concluded that the ATF went beyond its authority. On this issue specifically it couldn't be more clear, the ATF quite obviously redefined a legal term - yet it still hasn't 100% been put to bed. There will be at least one more challenge to the matter... check back in another year.

Yes, today's SCOTUS is a lot more friendly to 2A issues, but time and again they have declined to take valid gun cases, refused to wade into the murky grey areas, and limited the scope of their decisions. I'm not holding out any hope that they overturn the NFA.

Sure, wait 60 days - makes perfect sense and I will likely do the same (got to get my trust set up anyways). But at 120 days, my advise is that you take one of the options outlined. My only concern is that the legal challenges and republicans are going to screw up the best option available... free tax stamps.
 
Anyone who thinks "free tax stamps" is really how this is all going to pan out is putting way too much faith in the ATF to act ethically.

Just refer to the 'solvent trap' Form 1 fiasco a year ago if you want to see what they did under very similar circumstances.
 
Anyone who thinks "free tax stamps" is really how this is all going to pan out is putting way too much faith in the ATF to act ethically.

Just refer to the 'solvent trap' Form 1 fiasco a year ago if you want to see what they did under very similar circumstances.

While I can't say that I'm 100% aware of all of the ins and outs of the solvent trap fiasco you are referencing, I will say that if you bought one of these "traps", then you did so with the intent of having a suppressor without doing any of the requirements set forth in codified law. Sorry, but that's just the reality of the situation. If you bought them with the intent of filling out a Form 1 and making a legal suppressor, then you got caught in the middle of the ATF and the "suppressor" part MFG. Unfortunate for you, sure, but that isn't the ATF acting unethically. I'm not aware of the ATF offering any purchasers of solvent traps free tax stamps, so I'm not sure exactly how you are making the comparison.
 
I think that is being pretty optimistic. The bumpstock ban went into effect in 2017, 5+ years later, a court has finally concluded that the ATF went beyond its authority. On this issue specifically it couldn't be more clear, the ATF quite obviously redefined a legal term - yet it still hasn't 100% been put to bed. There will be at least one more challenge to the matter... check back in another year.

Yes, today's SCOTUS is a lot more friendly to 2A issues, but time and again they have declined to take valid gun cases, refused to wade into the murky grey areas, and limited the scope of their decisions. I'm not holding out any hope that they overturn the NFA.

Sure, wait 60 days - makes perfect sense and I will likely do the same (got to get my trust set up anyways). But at 120 days, my advise is that you take one of the options outlined. My only concern is that the legal challenges and republicans are going to screw up the best option available... free tax stamps.

Federal courts and the Supreme Court operate under a doctrine of Constitutional avoidance. In other words when an issue can be properly settled without interpreting the Constitution, they settle it on administrative law or procedural issues and don't wade into interpretation of the Constitution. You're calling that "limiting the scope of their decisions, but it's how the Supreme Court has always been run. It provides for greater stability of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights over the long term and insulates against radical changes by a far right or far left supreme court.


In the case of pistol braces, there are several administrative law issues that can be used to throw it out. And the second amendment issue, and Constitutional avoidance is the carrot to throw it out on those grounds rather than wading into the larger 2A issues.
 
While I can't say that I'm 100% aware of all of the ins and outs of the solvent trap fiasco you are referencing, I will say that if you bought one of these "traps", then you did so with the intent of having a suppressor without doing any of the requirements set forth in codified law. Sorry, but that's just the reality of the situation. If you bought them with the intent of filling out a Form 1 and making a legal suppressor, then you got caught in the middle of the ATF and the "suppressor" part MFG. Unfortunate for you, sure, but that isn't the ATF acting unethically. I'm not aware of the ATF offering any purchasers of solvent traps free tax stamps, so I'm not sure exactly how you are making the comparison.


The ATF denied and returned all Form 1 applications, regardless of whether it involved some one drilling the holes in the baffles and nd caps to convert a solvent trap into a suppressor (something the ATF had been fine with for years as long as it was properly registered) or, as in my case, planning to construct one on the lathe in my garage.


1) They treated us all the same; and

2) Those folks who had purchased solvent traps received zero advanced notice of the change in ATF policy and were left with no way to legally move forward with registration. At the very least it's a "taking" of property. It's also the ATF making a major revision of a regulation without following the required NPRM process.

—-

As for the ATF selling solvent traps, have you noticed there are still vendors on GB and on face book who are still selling solvent traps and "fuel filters". No one in their right mind would continue to sell them, except the ATF for the purpose of entrapment.
 
gdogs said:
While I can't say that I'm 100% aware of all of the ins and outs of the solvent trap fiasco you are referencing

The ATF denied over a thousand Form 1 applications, using the reasoning that the "kits"/"solvent traps", whatever, were always intended to become suppressors, and therefore were suppressors. You can't Form 1 something that is already an NFA item, therefore their logic was that these items were never sold legally and could not be registered on a Form 1 and were never transferred on Form 4 and therefore illegal.

The ATF had never before questioned Form 1s based on solvent traps or kits, but once they changed their mind, they even revoked some past Form 1 registrations that had already been approved and forced people to surrender or destroy property the ATF had already declared to be legal.

Now, they are saying the exact same thing: braced pistols were always SBRs. The ATF's prior position has been that you cannot Form 1 (manufacture) something that is already an NFA item.

All I'm saying is don't be surprised if they take this same route after you have provided them with proof that you are in possession of an unregistered SBR.

Folks keep expecting the ATF to act logically and ethically when they have proven over and over that they won't.
 
Instead of trying to make a stock not a stock, I'd love to see this energy applied to making a stock on a short barreled rifle not be an issue at all. All the "pro gun" politicians had the ability to pass laws reforming the NFA, yet like the hearing protection act, that all magically gets shelved until the makeup of congress means the bill will get nowhere. Virtue signaling to their base just like doomed AWBs from the other side.
 
Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

1. Yes

2. No

3. Because the ATF told people for a decade they were not rifle stocks, and that they were not a violation of the NFA. And, who am I to argue with the ATF?
 
This issue illustrates how absurd the NFA is in general. A lot of money is spent to regulate NFA items and it really doesn't make anyone safer.
 
Anyone who thinks "free tax stamps" is really how this is all going to pan out is putting way too much faith in the ATF to act ethically.

Just refer to the 'solvent trap' Form 1 fiasco a year ago if you want to see what they did under very similar circumstances.

if even 5 million people apply for the brace waiver, the ATF is throwing away a billion in tax stamp revenue. Let that sink in. If only half a million, thats 100 million "waived" That's not really going to play out well if the general public finds out the ATF bargain with us evil gun owners.

if it is 40 million, that's 8 BILLION in tax revenue.
 
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Great, Republicans are finally going to care enough about a gun issue to try to do something... of course it is no surprise that they pick the one issue that the gun industry is on the wrong side of. They'll no doubt screw up the free tax stamp offer for those of us that actually want to use it.

I'm sorry but I've just got 3 questions for all of you complaining about this rule soooo much.

1. Do you have a pistol with a stabilizing brace?
2. Do you fire it shouldered?
3. What makes you think that it isn't a stock then?

None of your questions have anything to do with it any more.
We're LONG past the point of "reasonable, common sense gun laws" in this country.
EVERY new law must be challenged. EVERY new "interpretation of law" must be challenged. Why? Because that's what we learned from the gun GRABBERS - or should have learned.

I might not think pistol braces are even worth owning, but I support to the fullest every effort to keep them legal for whomEVER wants to have one! Without compliance with some "tax stamp" garbage!

The reason the gun grabbers have made such headway is gun owners who didn't realize the moment it became necessary to be a SINGLE ISSURE VOTER! If they're antigun - WE DON'T VOTE FOR THEM!

Doesn't matter how "reasonable" the entire short-barreled rifle, pistol brace, bump-stock, WHATEVER might seem to be....it's yet another notch on the gun grabber agenda and so must be opposed - opposed, opposed, OPPOSED!

The worst thing about gun owners is their "snobbery" towards gun owners of a different kind. The Trap shooter ONLY cares about his O/U double and so cares not that some lying politician wants to ban ARs, or pistol braces - what does HE care? he should care, because when the buzzards finish off the carcasses of the ARs, pistol braces, semi-autos, "assault weapons" etc., they'll come for HIS gun choice!

I don't own anything with an arm brace, but I'm eager to see the fight get started! The best thing that we could have ever hoped for arrived in the form of Clarence Thomas' majority opinion in Bruen and it's time for ALL gun owners to stop the ankle biting about his gun or that while steadily electing gun-grabber after gun-grabber! It's time to support and encourage ALL resistance to ALL anti-gun laws.

You think there's a difference between a handgun and an SBR? WHAT might that be? It's all government overreach. A rifle with an 11" barrel and stock is certainly NOT as concealable as a handgun, so what POSSIBLE rationalization justifies it being a special item versus a longer rifle or a fully concealable handgun? That you don't already "care" about this is reflective of how well the gun grabbers have done their job.
 
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You think there's a difference between a handgun and an SBR? WHAT might that be? It's all government overreach. A rifle with an 11" barrel and stock is certainly NOT as concealable as a handgun, so what POSSIBLE rationalization justifies it being a special item versus a longer rifle or a fully concealable handgun? That you don't already "care" about this is reflective of how well the gun grabbers have done their job.

Yes, I do think there is a difference... and it is outlined in the NFA of 1934. I don't know anyone that is more pro-gun than me. I contact my reps on a regular basis, and anytime there is a hint of government overreach on gun issues. I will not under any circumstances vote for an anti gun candidate. BUT, on this issue, we're wrong. We got away with it for a while - I personally have 9 braced pistols, but "got away with it" is the correct phrase. Do whatever you want, fight the tyranny, refuse to comply, blah blah blah. I'm going to stay on the right side of a 90 year old law and get my free stamps - and then continue to vote pro gun and contact my reps when needed and justified. Seems to me like some of y'all are going to FAAFO - good luck with that.
 
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gdogs, you missed his point: that 'SBR's should never have been created as a specially restricted category in the first place.

Nobody "got away" with anything. The ATF repeatedly, in writing, said that 'braces' were legal, and also said that you could shoulder them. The market for braces would never have expanded to the extent it did without that approval.
 
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